How can I stop my dog barging into us?

[Fivefour]

Our greyhound is 3 years old. He's blind in one eye (someone did it to him before he came to us) so he's a bit clumsy anyway. However, he's always pushing past us and barging through. It's annoying in the house but not a huge problem. The difficulty comes when we're out in the park.
He really enjoys running around and is generally well behaved but he sometimes knocks into me when running past if we're walking along the path. It's worse for my children though as obviously they're smaller and can be knocked over.
I don't think it's deliberate barging, just he's excited, big and clumsy.
Any suggestions what I can do about it would be gratefully received.

I don't think my dog is a wolf, lol. Dogs are wired to live in packs and find their place in the hierarchy. Anyone who thinks that this is somehow an outdated theory or that dogs magically put their way of thinking aside and start thinking like humans because they are with us, is welcome to their beliefs.

I think the key is understanding which things matter to your dog and drawing boundaries. My dog really cared about being outside first. If we had a doggie visitor and both wanted to go outside, she would push the other dog aside to do first, and then just stand outside waiting, unsure of what to do. She would try yo do the same to us. For some reason, it really matters to her to be first outside the door. So observing her behaviour, I have trained her to wait inside, till we step outside

The sofa thingy reminds me of someone I know who has a dog mad mum. Loads of dogs growing up, allowed on the furniture and everywhere.

And the mum had obviously not taught the dogs that children are higher than them on the hierarchy. So while watching tv, the children would sit on the floor, the dogs on the sofa and the dogs would growl if my friend tried to get on the sofa. Her poor dad was there when she was telling about this and he looked so embarrassed. Lol

This comes up all the time. Tbh, more often than I would have thought considering how long Dominance/Pack Theory has been discredited.

It's exhausting, really. I know it's hard to accept what you thought about dogs and dog training is wrong but why cant owners just let their dog/dogs be dogs. Why do we still insist in giving them human emotions and feeling and more importantly why do we still expect them to have human understanding.

You dog is a dog. Not a wolf/human/horse/rabbit its a dog. He/She may be happy with his feeding times. Happy to have boundries. Enjoys being taught new things etc but he doesn't understand that its because you want to be the pack leader.

Your dog thinks your a human that looks after him, feeds him and loves him.

Actually more recent studies has shown that packs of feral dogs (stray, domestic dogs, not wild dogs like hyenas etc) form loose social structures and will work together to get food, shelter, keep warm, etc. but they do not have a rigid pack hierarchy, nor do they use of the standard dominance techniques among their pack. They do not alpha roll each other or have the leader eat first, for instance. Their relationships are based on prior encounters and learning about the other dog's traits through these encounters.

There's a little bit about one of those studies here

Getting outside first is important to most dogs who do it, simply because they are rewarded for getting outside with a walk or simply being outside. It's not important to them because they see it as a status symbol.

My dog doesn't like getting off the sofa because it's comfier than the floor. Again the sofa is not a symbol of status, it's just comfy.

But on a more serious note, people who dismiss the notion that dogs live in a hierarchy and it is really important for the mental health and well being of the dog to have a strong, stable pack leader...are more likely to misinterpret dog resource guarding and not deal with the root of the problem. Often leading to an escalation and possibly bites.

By not getting to the root cause of the behaviour, advice can often be counter productive and lead to long term problems, even if one tries to mask it with distractions and treats.

Look, if you don't want to have any structure in your dogs life and make excuses when dogs growl, resource guard and bite humans (oh sofa is so comfy, poor lamb would of course growl at me if I tried to get him off.. ). Your prerogative.

But there are plenty others who understand the importance of hierarchy a d providing a stable structure and boundaries. Interestingly, none of us seem to have problems with resource guarding, growls or bites because these behaviours were nipped in the bud.

You can make all the excuses you want, but at the end of the day you are not doing your dog any favours.

These discussions are pointless if those still harking on about old theories do not read the links and books that have been recommended time and time again.

You are WRONG in your interpretation of what people are saying Flatbread. The alternative to the dominance theory is not as you suggest "dogs growl, resource guard and bite humans (oh sofa is so comfy, poor lamb would of course growl at me if I tried to get him off.. ).

If you are interested read the literature if not don't waste time discussing the same out of date ignorant theory over and over again.

My dog used to growl at me when I tried to get him off the sofa. I employed modern, positive training techniques with him and now he sees being asked to get off the sofa as something which might gain him a better reward than a comfy seat. He now gets off when I simply point to the floor. It is one of those things he has learned so well, it doesn't even need a full command.

Using dominance theory on him would have led to an escalation and further incidents of snapping because he is a nervous, fearful dog. He has no wish for leadership, he just doesn't want you to hurt him and if that means he needs to get in and attack first that is what he would have done. Instead he now sees working with us as something positive and trusts in us far more than he did when he arrived.

He is a happy, well adjusted dog. He does have boundaries. As do my children, and even myself to some degree, it's called respect. You don't generally respect those who cause you pain or take away your supper just because they think they should be able to. You just learn to fear those people. Fear leads to aggression and guarding.

Teaching a dog boundaries and proving stable leadership is not dominance theory either. So not sure why we are getting into this discussion in the first place.

OP has a fairly simple problem, a poster gave her some advice based on her experience. Cue for other posters who don't agree to jump down her throat with ideological nonsense.

OP wanted practical suggestions on how to deal with issue, and she got them. If others have an alternative suggestion, provide it. This is a forum, not a preaching podium.

It can be quite dangerous being pushed over by a dog. My friend was knocked over by her lab bounding up behind her - she hit her head on a concrete path and had concussion. Couldn't drive or work for a couple of weeks.

My dog loves the sofa, but she'll allow any one of us to push her off it when we need to sit down. She's never growled at us for anything like that. The slipper under the table story, however, rings true. We wondered why our placid little Meg had started growling at us when we took stuff off her under the table. I thought she'd started to get possessive of stuff she was taking, but turns out we're just giving her mixed messages and had stopped finding it cute when she nicked our shoes!

Dog ownership is much like parenting. Everyone has different styles and believes in different methods. We do what we think is right. Personally, I think the dominance thing is a load of old tosh. But I'm a complete rookie and wouldn't dream of giving anyone any advice either way!

Hope you sort out your issues soon OP.

He has no wish for leadership

There lies your complete lack of understanding of dogs, my dear Dooing
All dogs want leadership, it provides them with security. The alternative is stress and fear. If one isn't capable of providing leadership it doesn't mean that the dog doesn't want it.

My pup has an ear infection and the vet has given ear drops to rub. It hurts the pup, but he doesn't growl. Far from it, he leans into me for comfort and wants to lie on my foot when it hurts a lot. Because he believes that as his family/ pack leader I will protect him and take care of him. It would not cross his mind to growl at me or bite me, even though my massaging the area caused discomfort. That is stable pack behaviour. If one has never provided leadership to your dogs, no wonder they growl and bite and need to be placated by sweets.

I don't feed my dogs sweets. I am not rich enough to afford the dental bills. Yet again, Flathead, my dear friend, you are talking utter bollocks.

My dog was nervous-aggressive when he came to us from the pound. Working with him in a positive and rewarding way and helped to build his trust in people and reduce his fear and as such reduce the growling.

The reason all this dominance theory gets on my wick is that it is completely useless, OP eating before her dog is not going to impact the dog jumping and bounding around even slightly. Positive training, and rewarding calm behaviour like Scuttle suggested earlier on the thread will help.

Dominance theory is totally ineffective at best and downright dangerous at worst, depending upon how far you push the theory.

I have a 7 year old springer, who has always guarded toys, food, socks etc. in the early days of having her I tried reward only training. Doesn't work with some dogs, with mine she did what she wanted and was a bit aggressive so had to find an alternative. Later I read several books on pack theory and dominance and tried those techniques. THESE REALLY DON'T WORK. if you have a fear aggressive dog the last thing you want to do is meet that aggression with aggression.

Eating in front of he dogs has no impact either. Hand feeding was the way I managed to train my dog to accept me being around her when she ate. She's still not 100% and not sure she ever will be, but she's good with my one year old, steals his toys, but brings them to me and let's me have them. 4 years ago she'd be in her bed snarling and guarding them.

My dogs aren't allowed on furniture and they know that I go through the door first, mainly because walking 2 dogs and carrying a baby would be a nightmare otherwise. I did find my older dog's behaviour improved after not being allowed on the sofa

I agree that making sure the dog doesn't barge past you in the house may help, because I think dogs need consistency. I'd recommend clicker training too, as then you can signal that the dog is doing what you want clearly and from a distance.

Yup, just keep shouting dominance theory and cover your ears, la, la la...

We all prove positive training, you know. But we also draw boundaries and expect dogs to get rewarded for good actions and corrected for behaviour which is not acceptable. Leads to happy, stable dogs. Bribing a growling dog to get off a sofa with goodies is not positive reinforcement.

In the hypothetical case that my dog was on the sofa, and he got off it when I say 'off', he might get a caress as a reward. But if he growled, he would be off in the blinking of an eye with no reward. Giving a goodie in this scenario is just nonsensical and is not positive training. It is appeasement. And it is a dangerous thing to do and does nothing to correct the underlying issue of the lack of respect your dog has for you.

Anyway, we have all had this discussion million times and can just agree to disagree on our approach to bringing up dogs. I just wish that you wouldn't jump down the throat of every poster who dares to suggest an alternative to your, IMO, nonsensical approach. It leads to zealotry in the dog house and no space for multiple viewpoints and experiences.

I'd like to invite you round to drag my growling dog off the sofa. That's something I would love to see.

I just need to find me a growling dog first

It's not zealotry, btw, sometimes there is a right way and a wrong way. Those luverly science-y type people have done important studies and research and clever stuff like that proved dominance is the wrong way.

They even wrote books and reports and things all about it. You can find these online. Google is your friend.

Was that aimed at me Flatbread?

The problem with some of the dominance books is that there a bit extreme. One of the books I had said not to give the dog a blanket to lie on as they would prefer a hard floor as wolves don't like clutter! Utter rubbish! We always joke that the thing springers do best is find the comfort.

I don't think solely reward a dog is effective in all cases, it may work with some but not mine. I hav never rewarded a snarling dog as you suggested, but training did involve throwing treats in bed when she was relaxed in there as it was an area she was guarding.

Labelling a dog as dominant is very misleading. A dog doesn't pull on the lead because it is dominant for example. It pulls because it's excited. This explains why some dogs pull at the start of the walk but not the end, I mean, they don't change temperaments and become submissive mid walk!

I haven't found any single theory in a book that works for 100% of dogs 100% of the time. I have 2 dogs, one I need to be very firm with, but if I used the same techniques on my other dog it would destroy him. You have to do what suits your dog the best.

Throwing treats in HER bed!

Pretty, no it wasn't aimed at you, I think we were writing posts at the same time and mine came after yours.

I completely agree that the approach to each dog needs to be tailored to its own personality and needs, and what works in one situation might not work in another.

I don't see the point in being ideological about bringing up dogs or children, for that matter. There is no black and white.

I have a doctorate and maybe that is why I am so sceptical of any theory having the claim to truth. Most behavioural theories are fads, what was is vogue fifty years ago will be out of fashion now. And what we believe now will be out of fashion down the road. E.g., theories for bringing up children, I am sure the next generation will say we have it all wrong

I say best think is to have common sense and do what works for your dog. And the nice thing about forums like this is that people can share experiences. It degenerates to a bunfight when it becomes ideological and preachy.

FFS! When will everyone realise, all those qualified, vastly experienced behaviourists such as Jean Donaldson, Ian Dubar, Sophia Yin, etc etc are wrong and Flatbread, with her 'vast' experience of three dogs, (as far as I can tell) one of which is a puppy and one of which isn't even hers is right.

I am not that far from Flatbread (not in rural France, thank goodness!) Perhaps she would like to come and try out her theories on my 'rescue' dog and see how far it gets her?

Just to add, clearly I wasted my money on the very expensive behaviourist who doesn't believe in 'packs' or dominance theory and does believe in giving 'sweeties' to dogs, despite the fact we've made huge progress since we saw him...

Do you not realise how clever dogs are??

My 6 month old Staffy knows that the rules change according to who's in the bed. He knows that if DH is in bed, he's not allowed under the covers, and that when DH gets up, he's allowed to come under the covers.

The only time he gets it a bit wrong is if DH gets up to the children in the night, or to the loo...he thinks it must be morning time and shifts his nose under the edge of the covers. All I have to do is say 'not yet' and put my hand over the covers under his nose.

Dogs don't need hard and fast dominance. They need to know that no matter what happens, they are loved, and that doing as they're told is much more pleasant than doing their own thing.

Btw...I see hand feeding as reward

Midori, if your behaviourist doesn't believe that dogs live in packs and that all packs including human ones, function with an hierarchy and rules, you have indeed wasted your money.

You could have left your dog with me for free and gone home with a stable, balanced dog a month later

No one talking about a dog dominating us...but like children testing boundaries, dogs also want to know if anyone, is in charge. It reassures them if there is pack leader.

Lougle, lol about your dog coming into bed when dp leaves