It's been done before but...

[MiseryBusiness]

Recently there have been a lot of posts regarding 'Pack Theory' and 'Dominance Theory' and I thought we could all share our thoughts.

I posted on a thread recently to ignore the advice the OP had been given about ''being the pack leader'' and was told that if I didnt believe in Dominance theory I must treat my dog like Paris Hilton and carry them around in a handbag and pamper them like babies or some such rubbish.

I have found reading The Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson and Ian Dunbar's online books and training methods very enlightening. My DH used to worship Ceaser Milan until I set him straight.

I bloody loved The Culture Clash, such a good read. I think the bit about dogs being completely and innocently selfish and the Disney dog myth really helped me to understand what motivates my dog's behaviour.

I'm now having visions of trying to stuff my Staffy into my handbag!

I don't use/believe in pack theory or dominance theory. Treats and praise work well for my woofs.

Staffy boy is being a teddy for my sick Ds right now so he can't be that selfish.

I've been really enjoying 'In Defence of Dogs' which makes the arguments (in a nutshell) that
a) the 'science' behind pack-theory dog training methods is derived from observing wolves
b) Dogs aren't 'descended from wolves' and domestic dogs don't actually share a common genetic ancestor
c) the wolf packs originally studied (from which many dog-training theories evolved) were in captivity and thus more stressed than natural wolf-packs, leading to more violent dominant/submissive behaviour.
d) in fact, domestic dogs evolutionary advantage may come from their ability to adapt and fit in happily with complex family groups, and we should celebrate this.

One analogy would be that observing captive wolves in prison and basing dog-training methods on this behaviour is like observing convicts in a prison environment (more stressed, more violent, more dom/sub) and then using that to make general inferences about general human behaviour.

sits back and loves this thread

I like that analogy Quodlibet

I love learning more about canine behaviour. When I found out that yawning can be a calming signal we realised that if we rushed about the house all stressed the dog would sit and stare at us and yawn. Makes me laugh now, in my head she is saying ''calm down you daft buggers people'' .

A friend of mine still thinks CM and his methods are amazing. I've tried so hard to get her to change her mind. She even does that horrible kick and bite thing he does. Her dog is ok but he does a lot of things that make me very wary of him. Sometimes, people just wont listen.

Not much to add as I agree that all dogs respond best to a positive training approach, but you may need to tailor the approach for the individual dog by working out what their motivators are. I find that the fun part, it's part of learning about your dog's personality.

I guess some confusion arises where several dogs live together, as there is a definite form of hierarchy. Also part of training a very nervous dog is taking a position such that the dog learns you make the decisions in all unnerving situations. That has nothing to do with being a bully towards your dog.

I thought 'In Defence of Dogs' was very good too. I can't understand the resistance from some people, surely it's good to be aware of the latest research. And I think it's fascinating to learn about dogs and how they think, why they do the things they do, and how we can communicate what we want to them - it can only make you a better owner surely.

I do remember that thread, had vague thoughts at the time of trying to Photoshop a pic of my two Rottie boys 'in' a designer handbag but never got around to it! It really illustrated the attitudes some people have though - amazing that 'dominance' has taken hold in the public imagination so strongly.

I am wondering though - how did people train dogs before the dominance theory from the wolf-observation studies came along? Or was there not much formal training or obedience done?

"amazing that 'dominance' has taken hold in the public imagination so strongly."

Ephiny I think this in itself is interesting from a human psychological view point. Our love of anthropomorphisation (you only have to watch an afternoon of CBeebies to know how strongly and from such an early age we humanise anything and everything) and our complex human sociological structures I reckon makes us want to fit other species into our human way of understanding things.

I'm always [Rodin's Thinker] when i see people staunchly defending pack theory and dominance, makes me a-wonder what they are like as a person.

I am wondering though - how did people train dogs before the dominance theory from the wolf-observation studies came along? Or was there not much formal training or obedience done?

Does anyone else remember Barbara Woodhouse from the TV programmes in the early 80s? I'm afraid that I can't remember anything apart from "Walkies", "Sit!" and choke-collars.... but I don't think her methods were dominance based.

I keep intending to buy some of the books mentioned here..... I am really interested in finding out more about dog psychology and behaviour.

I sometimes wonder why there are so many formal training methods. There is no one size fits all about dogs. I wish more trainers realised that, and taught people to read their dog and work with him. My two dogs are so different, what works for one won't necessarily work with the other.

If you look at competition dogs, obedience, working trials, rallyo, HTM etc you will see that the standard is way higher than 10 years ago.

I would love to see how Barbara Woodhouse would get a dog to do some of the tricks the HTM dogs do today. This standard has improved as more and more people see the benefit of positive based training. A pet owner can now have a repertoire of tricks, trained easily and willingly by the dog. Twenty years ago we were impressed by a dog giving a paw to shake!

The more we learn about how dogs learn the more we are able to ask them to do and the more willing dogs are to do it.

I agree that dogs need different stimulation and reward but ALL dogs will respond to positive based training.

I think I subscribe to being the pack leader theory, but reading what you guys are saying my understanding of that idea isn't what you are talking about.

I view it like being a parent, in that I provide consistent guidelines and leadership in the context of a mutually loving and respectful relationship - which of course means praise and credit where praise and credit is due, and a reprimand likewise. In that I wear the trousers ultimately but I don't dominate in the 'domineering' sense.

after 3 dogs all of very different characters I find this works well. For instance when my current dog arrived aged 5 he certainly needed to have confidence in me being the one with the final say-so (much like a small child might) as it gave him security and he relaxed and stopped testing the boundaries.

Not sure I've explained that well. So am I a pack-leader subscriber as I have always thought or am I a more a CultureClash person (caveat - I haven't read that)?

What do you call a reprimand?

hmm, depending on what you mean by 'reprimand' would depend on whether you've brought into the Pack Theory nonsense.

Saying something like Ah-Ah! In a firm way if he is heading to do something. Or using his name in a cross voice if he has just done something. That would be enough to make him stop. With a dog I have had in the past who was a stronger personality I would send her to her basket for a while (minutes not hours)

Well - I think have bought into pack-leader stuff. As in my experience, not dissimilar in people, some personalities are more people-pleasers than others and some are more group-leader than others, some more likely to be the one decide what pub to go to etc. In my circle of friends I am sometimes the group leader as I am reasonably outspoken but if certain characters are there I drop into more of a listener role. I find dogs similar, but of course I need to be the group-leader person at all times with my dog (unlike my friends) as they don't have the brains to know how to behave at all times in all situations and I need them to be obedient, so they and others can be safe. So from that point of view I think I am pack-leader.

I dont mean this to sound rude but, you aren't a pack leader. Your dog doesnt think he is in a pack.

I think part of the problem is that people who follow the pack theory/dominance approach don't even have a good idea of what that means. Instead they have some woolly folk psychology that has them as the boss and a belief that anyone who does things differently lets their dogs run wild.

Slubber, the psychology of it fascinates me too. I think you are right that a lot of it is anthropomorphism. I wonder if some of it is also the wish to feel in control; I mean, even if you can't be in control of the rest of your life, if you believe in pack theory you can enjoy feeling like the 'alpha' with your dog.

You are probably right miserybusiness it's just that what I do and the way I am with my dogs is/was what I thought was meant by the pack-leader theory. So I have never seen what the dispute was about as it just seems a common-sense way to be.

Is the pack-leader theory something else then? I thought it was just being firm and fair.

Suppose I am not really following a theory if I don't really know the in's and out's of that theory - it isn't as if I have read any papers about it! I just assumed what it was from the bits and pieces you hear discussed. Maybe I have been deluded all along and I am really the dogs Mum. hahaha - doesn't really change my day to day life though does it, so maybe my ramblings are just derailing a perfectly intersting thread about theories I am not equipped to discuss.

Am interested though.

I'm with GinPalace on the combined approach. I've used mostly positive reinforcement with my dog to elicit desired behaviour and counter-correction to eliminate undesirable behaviour but I'm certainly not above a low, firm NO if I catch my dog in the act of doing something naughty. I don't think that means that all of us who've used different methods of training than a constant flow of rewards subscribe to "woolly psychology" or possess dubious personality traits. But then my dog is well-bred, well-socialized and well-mannered to begin with so I don't need to keep an endless flow of treats going in order to keep her from harming people or property . Dogs are all different aren't they? Just like children.

If I saw a dog heading off to do something I did not want it to do - I would ask for a correct behaviour and then reward the good behaviour.

The dog would have no idea if it where heading off to do something and you stopped it what it had done wrong however it would learn that good behaviour gets attention, reward, praise so is way more likely to offer good behaviour.

Watch a group of dogs - there is not one leader at all. You may find some dogs appear more confident in certain situations (which could be misunderstood as a pack leader) but that will not be all situations. Often the quiet dog is the one who breaks up any tension - does that make them he pack leader - no the dogs will all adapt and react differently in different situations and with different dogs.

I do have a "peace maker" dog who will always show the new foster dogs how we behave in our house BUT there is no way he is the pack leader. Any sign of agro and he will throw calming signals around like there is no tomorrow and the dogs read this and will chance their behaviour immediately.

Wish a yawn, or scratching my neck got the DC's back in control.....

Dogs and children are different but again Children will respond much more positively to understanding why they are required to do something and will prefer to be in a positive environment than one full of reprimand and criticism. so do adults!

My dad's food-thief dog knows exactly why you have stopped him heading towards a food-laden table!! He sneaks towards it when you aren't looking and will stop in his tracks if he sees you have spotted him and stroll off as though he was Mr Innocent!

Exactly my point! It's just common sense and setting firm, fair and consistent boundaries in a positive environment. I have no idea about "pack theory" or whether my dog has any sense of a "pack" in our household but my dog knows that I'm the one that sets the parameters of desirable/undesirable behaviour in our household. I'm the person responsible for the dog's health, happiness and behaviour...

GinPalace you are so wrong in your interpretation of your dad's dog. His sneaking when you are not looking and stopping in his tracks is that he knows he is going to get a bollocking - he does not know why - He knows when I behave like this I get bollocked.

Same response when a dog wees on the floor when you are out, it will cower when you come in - nothing to do with the wee, dog knows that when you come home you go ballistic - so it cowers waiting for the ballistic outbreak - it has forgotten that it weed on the floor 20 mins ago.

Dog gets stressed more likely to wee, which just confirms owner goes made when he comes in the door to start with.