It's been done before but...

[MiseryBusiness]

Recently there have been a lot of posts regarding 'Pack Theory' and 'Dominance Theory' and I thought we could all share our thoughts.

I posted on a thread recently to ignore the advice the OP had been given about ''being the pack leader'' and was told that if I didnt believe in Dominance theory I must treat my dog like Paris Hilton and carry them around in a handbag and pamper them like babies or some such rubbish.

I have found reading The Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson and Ian Dunbar's online books and training methods very enlightening. My DH used to worship Ceaser Milan until I set him straight.

I do think one of my dogs is deliberately disobedient sometimes, and knows exactly what he's doing wrong. At least I think so.

I hesitate saying that because I know very often when people label a dog 'wilful' or 'stubborn' it's more likely that they've failed to train properly and the dog doesn't actually understand the instruction as well as the owner thinks they do. And it's very easy for us to misinterpret dog behaviour and motivations, projecting human thought processes on them etc. So quite aware I might have got this wrong.

I do think generally reward-based training works best. Certainly for teaching what a command means, the reward-based approach (with a clicker ideally!) is incredibly effective, I have no doubt that it's the best way to go for that. I suspect that with some dogs you need a little more sometimes though, especially if I'm right about the above. Not talking about anything like shock collars or choke chains or smacking, but maybe a stern NO! or well-timed use of a rattle-can. Timing is essential though, if they don't know what they're being told off for, then it's useless or worse.

I think where a lot of people go wrong is actually thinking their dog needs a 'pack leader' and if it doesn't know everyone else in the household is higher in the 'pack' than them they will become dominant and try to rule the household.

Dogs aren't on a secret mission to take over the world.

I get the reward based training, but there seems to be the suggestion that you shouldn't punish bad behaviour, so how do you teach them not to do something?

If I give a specific example, how would you deal with this?

We have a HuskyX. We know if we leave stuff lying around she will chew it, so we don't leave stuff lying around. But, we were outside the other day and she wanted to be with us and couldn't. So she took the cushions off of the sofa, and would have chewed them if I hadn't caught her. She knows this is wrong - that's why she does it. If it was my DS who deliberately destroyed something he would have had a time out, or an Xbox ban, i.e. a punishment.

So what should I have done to the dog for destroying something?

I'm curious about this too. If you were to catch a dog in a brand-new, undesirable behaviour like the one above (assuming up to this point that the owner has only used preventative/positive training methods etc.) what would be the correct thing to do in the above situation (or the example yesterday with the dog that had the butter). I have seen how well the positive reinforcement works for teaching my dog things I want her to do and how to use it to prevent behaviours I don't want but how would it work for new, unexpected, undesirable behaviours in a dog that didn't respond to a simple, firm, voice command?

That is not why she chews the cushions! She doesn't do it to spite you. She can't think like that. She probably chews the cushions because they're there and she wants to chew something.

Sorry Belinda I have to disagree. Perhaps I should have mentioned she was a Husky

She only steals cushions for a specific event. We can go out and leave her with no issues, we can go into the PiLs (who live with us) with no issues, we have a seperate building we use as an office which we can go into with no issues, we can do anything EXCEPT gardening. If we garden without her, she will steal and chew the cushions.

We're not normally mean enough to be in the garden without the dogs, but we're Husky proofing a specific area - so whilst we're working there is a chance she could get into it, so she has to be kept indoors - much to her major disgruntlement. Hence eating my newly made cushions.

Like belindarose says, your dog is not deliberately chewing the cushions out of spite. She didn't think ''I'm not allowed out, I know I'll chew the beloved sofa cushions. That'll learn 'em.''

I'm not the expert in training on here, minimuu may have some good advice about what to do if you catch them doing something like that.

Our dog chews if she is bored, if we catch her chewing something we'll say no, take it off her and then offer her something that belongs to her. I dont shout at her because it scares her and I would never say anything unless I actually catch her in 'the act' so to speak.

Yes I really doubt your dog is chewing cushions out of spite. OK you know your dog better than we do, but still, in my experience that is just not how dogs think or behave.

Often chewing when left alone is either boredom or anxiety/stress-related (same for weeing in the house, in a house-trained dog) not sure why she'd do it only when you're in the garden, but maybe that situation gets her more wound up - it's different from being 'properly' left because she can see/hear you there but can't get to you?

minimuu you don't know what you are talking about as no-one has ever bollocked my Dad's dog!!!! He gets a firm voice and steered away, no shouting, no violence, no smacking etc etc. He just knows he isn't supposed to take food he hasn't been given. He is a bright dog, and I have had clever and thick dogs so I know the difference.

Minimuu didnt actually suggest your Dad smacked or used violence towards his dog.

I cannot shout at my dogs as it upsets them. How do you know when your dog feels like its had a bollocking? Maybe being spoken to in a firm voice and steered away makes the dog feel like its had a 'bollocking'? Hense the behaviour?

The dog is not chewing the cushions to get back at you or to spite you even if she is a husky

A lot of dog training is prevention so if you know she chews cushions when she is left do not leave cushions lying around or put her in a room without cushions or crate her.

Chewing is a major stress reliever so more likely to be the reason or she was bored.

If my dogs were doing some brand new bad behaviour I would give another command eg touch (my dogs will touch my finger if I put my finger out to them) If they are down the garden and I call touch they will charge up to me and touch my finger) They always know that the reward for the correct behaviour will be fantastic so will have no problem at all leaving what they were doing to give me the correct behaviour.

So if the dogs stole the butter I would ask for a good behaviour they would drop the butter and willingly give me the good behaviour. I would then punish myself for being an idiot for leaving the butter out However the dogs would still know that the good behaviour and doing as they are asked is the best most fun thing in the world.

Example tonight took the pysco pup (dumped on my doorstep for being so aggressive) to agility when we got her she would lunge bark and go to attack any dog that she saw. I have been giving her alternative behaviour for which she is rewarded when she wants to lunge, bark and attack. In my case a look dog. She looks at the dog, looks at me and then gets a fantastic reward. Now we are at the stage where she can run with other dogs, compete at agility etc.

The dominance method would be to shout at her, alpha roll her, squirt water in her face etc all of which would just make her behaviour worse due to fear and stress. Positive training all the way. There is no behaviour it can not change.

Another example I had staffi pups dumped on my doorstep (see the pattern here!) They are young only weeks old but they will all sit, go down, tuggy, and release, wee on command, come to their names and not when you call another puppies name, all through clicker training. That would just not be possible with dominance training

It is a simplification and a false dichotomy of thinking there are only two types of training methods, loading a dog with treats which you define as 'positive reinforcement' or dominance training where you alpha roll the dog (lol)

There are loads of in-between corrective actions - the idea is to set consistent patterns in the dogs brain that certain behaviour patterns are desirable because either he gets a treat or avoids something irritating/unpleasant.

Also, equally important, certain behaviors are undesirable, because they lead to removal of pleasures or lead to unpleasant consequences. e.g., for humans, not wearing our seat-belts leads to the unpleasant sound of the car alert.

As long as the conditioning is done in a calm assertive manner and is consistent, it will provide a secure environment for the dog, as it knows what is expected of him/her.

All these value judgement of 'good' and 'bad' ways to condition are in the human mind. For a dog, they are simply signals and as long as they are done in a calm and consistent way, it will feel secure.

No signals or conflicting signals are the issue. Not which signal type are used - each owner can best decide based on the nature of her dog and what works in each circumstance.

btw, in positive reinforcement, the treat should be given AFTER the positive act has been performed (otherwise it is bribery, e.g., if you give the dog a treat before it releases the bone)

Totally disagree with Flatbread

I think it is very important to keep all training methods positive. There should never be unpleasant consequences. It is the unpleasant consequence that is likely to confuse a dog. Seriously read The Culture Clash.

If you can correct behaviour with possitive training methods why would you do anything else. People blame their dogs for having a 'strong will' or something or other but really you just need to put in more time.

Flatbread, minimuu suggestion of giving the treat was due to the fact the OP cannot go near her dog whilst it has got its bone etc, it is to get the dog used to dropping the treat for something else.

Too many owners project their own personal feelings onto their dogs.

Very well-written post by Flatbread .

suggestion of giving the treat was due to the fact the OP cannot go near her dog whilst it has got its bone etc, it is to get the dog used to dropping the treat for something else

If it was my dog, the pattern she would have recognized (and she is very quick to pick up patterns) is that if she growls, not only does she get butter, but she gets sausages as well!

This is positive reinforcement of an undesirable behavior, e.g., guarding and growling.

But surely if you ask the dog to 'drop' something and you reward for the correct behaviour thats good? Then if you know your dog will steal stuff like the butter example. Make sure you dont leave it lying around.

I dont think my dog understand what bribery is to be honest, they understand command = treat

if you reward the dog AFTER it had dropped/given something on your command, that is positive reinforcement.

If you give it a goodie AFTER it has growled, all it sees is that if it does a certain behaviour, i.e., guarding and growling, and it gets yum liver or whatever treat you give him.

The dog has no concept of a trade and exchange for "higher value" returns/treats. It didn't go to business school.

If it was my neighbour's fat dog, it would guard the bone with one paw while gobbling up the liver, lol. And then get ready to growl again when it wants another treat.

Then if you know your dog will steal stuff like the butter example. Make sure you dont leave it lying around

Why? I leave butter and other tasty morsels lying around. There are crackers and cheese and wine on my side table, and the takeaway is often on the floor while we are watching a movie. Our dog can lie right next to the food and be close to us and know not to eat the food, till she is allowed to.

That is the benefit of being open to a range of training methods.

I'm guessing mine would do the same, Flatbread.

Is anyone familiar with B.F. Skinner? I always think of his theories when I'm working with my dog. Specifically, the combination of positive reinforcement (treats) and punishment/extinction (which doesn't mean a bollocking (or electric shock!) but rather a firm, gentle, verbal correction which my particular dog is very attuned to). I've observed the two to be equally effective in shaping behaviour in animals but I believe (because I love my dog) that positive reinforcement is the way to go most of the time. However, there are some situations/circumstances/dogs that do require punishment/extinction methods of training some of the time. Hopefully it goes without saying that timing/method are extremely important.

I'm not trying to be controversial or facetious but am enjoying the debate and I learn something from EVERY post on the doghouse.

Terrier, I am familiar with Skinner's work. I am with you on using positive training most of the time. The thing with corrections is that it is not about dominance, as some misunderstand, it is for the benefit of the dog.

In our case, dogs roam around quite freely in the village and pay neighbourly visits. It is important that they have good doggie manners and don't snatch, steal, or guard food as they will no longer be welcome.

Our neighbour for example, gets complaints that her dog steals food (a very food-driven lab/retriever) and he is not welcome by most of the others on the street, except by us and the old lady at the end of the road.

Flatbread How do dogs learn?

My dog is a total theif. If we are around you can see her intention is to eat your food but she doesnt because we have taught her not to so we can eat a take away in front of her and she wont gobble up whats on the plate.

If you leave the room though its fair game. Every dog owner I know that has a truly food motivated dog knows it is far better to keep things out of their way than punish them for getting whatever you have left in reach.

Like I said before, if you can get the same outcome from positive training, why would you still punish your dog?

Mine is still an unruly pup of 10 months and highly food motivated. He has, through positive training alone, learned a lie stay so strong that I can leave food on the floor, leave the room altogether and literally forget about it, before returning to find him still lying down with the food there. I forgot to tell him he could eat his dinner the other day and he was s lying beside it ten minutes later. He was initially very prone to stealing food from my toddler, or taking her toys, so it was a crucial to teach. If I had taught this through the 'water spray' method advocated by my dad and FIL, there is no doubt that he'd steal when I wasn't in the room.

I still don't take risks with the butter dish! I know he wants stuff - he's a dog.