It's been done before but...

[MiseryBusiness]

Recently there have been a lot of posts regarding 'Pack Theory' and 'Dominance Theory' and I thought we could all share our thoughts.

I posted on a thread recently to ignore the advice the OP had been given about ''being the pack leader'' and was told that if I didnt believe in Dominance theory I must treat my dog like Paris Hilton and carry them around in a handbag and pamper them like babies or some such rubbish.

I have found reading The Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson and Ian Dunbar's online books and training methods very enlightening. My DH used to worship Ceaser Milan until I set him straight.

Sorry to be a pedant but I am itching to correct something from Quodlibet's post on the first page, which is just a typo. She says "b) Dogs aren't 'descended from wolves'' and the word 'modern' is missing; dogs aren't descended from modern wolves. Sorry Quodlibet, hope you don't mind but it makes a big difference to the meaning. I was fascinated by that section of Bradshaw's book.

Red, the MN thing was about being fanatical about one approach to the exclusion of everything else. In this thread and elsewhere, people are shouted down for suggesting anything different from the self-proclaimed experts here.

I will just repeat, there is a lot more nuance to training a dog and no one is talking about alpha roll dominance theory.

I think we are going in circles here, so I will stop.

I'd like to fully understand how to positively train my dog so which book would be a good starting point?

not sure I can fit him in my handbag, I'd have to cut hole in it for his lovely long Lurcher legs.

www.amazon.co.uk/Complete-Positive-Training-Lifestyle-Paperback/dp/1592574831 :)

Sorry, but I think there is a bit of uncalled-for bullying going on here. I've been on MN for a while so I know how fraught the doghouse can be but it must be awfully daunting for new people to post here, particularly as they probably will be posting about some sort of canine "infraction". I think we can all agree that this is a place for people who love dogs, correct? Some of them are experts, some knowledgeable lay-persons and some people are brand-new to the world of dogs. It shouldn't be a place where one person is allowed to monopolize an entire topic; we should all be able to share information in a welcoming place, yes? It's not fair to bully and belittle posters that have made mistakes but are clearly knowledgeable and care a great deal about their dogs and are otherwise responsible, even if you disagree with their point of view (or their past actions).

We have had this problem on the doghouse before and I still think it's an issue. It would be a shame if people who genuinely need help with their dogs are afraid to post here because of the vitriolic and quite frankly, nasty, responses that they are sure to receive. It's one thing to share your knowledge from the benefit of your experience but it's a different matter altogether to use that as a tool for belittling posters whose previous actions you don't agree with. I may not post on the doghouse a lot but I read everything and I won't stand by and say nothing while someone is being treated unfairly.

Nobody has talked about using or been supportive of alpha-roll whotsit, shouting, or physical punishment of any kind so I think we're all in agreement there.

Terrier, who on earth is being bullied?

And there is certainly no 'one person monopolising' this topic!

I don't think there is any bullying here but there is a difference of opinion. To be honest I don't give a toss what other people think and if they are not willing to learn, except that the one suffering is the dog.

Basing discussions on ownership of one dog is not reasonable. Dominance training and also punishing the dog can have horrendous consequences and dogs are often rehomed because of incorrect training methods or an inability to cope with behaviour that is so simple to change using the correct positive training methods.

Flatbread is harping on about the thread re guarding food and knows nothing about counter conditioning or desensitzation so her half knowledge is just giving out bad advice which as she said herself could cause the dog to bite

I am now worried that people think we are agreeing but just not happy with the term for the record I am not agreeing at all!

Who is being bullied? Why is it if there is a debate on the doghouse where some people disagree someone will always come along and say how the regulars here will put everyone off posting.

Its ok to disagree on every other board except the doghouse.

Ah but you see Flat you said I also agree that not all dogs want to please but I would disagree.

No dog wants to please you because that would require them to have a theory of mind ie understand your thought processes, what a dog wants is the happy fuzzy feelings it gets when you meet it's need for food, companionship, security, structure, whatever that individual dog finds positively reinforcing. Some dogs might get that from a smile, sign of affection, calm attention, but quite a lot will need something else, food, play, etc.

I agree with you that different dogs need different methods of training, there is not a one size fits all training method in my opinion, and equally any training method carried out badly can be counter productive.

On a lighter note I have clicker trained the dog, the cat and the child. I actually had forgetten that I had clicker trained the cat (it was 12 years ago) until mobile mop arrived and I was teaching him to sit and suddenly there was beautiful moggy girl in a perfect sit waiting.

Lizcat - does clicker training work with stroppy, moody teenagers (of the human kind) or have I left it too late?

I don't see any bullying either. There have been threads on the Doghouse that have got a bit heated and unpleasant (though even then I don't think bullying is the right word) but this isn't one of them. It's not bullying to disagree with someone or debate a point!

I am afraid I don't know about teenagers I only have a stroppy moody 8 year old girl.
I can report the cat is the best of all of them, but then she is my perfect never put a foot wrong PFB.

I can tell you don't give a toss Minimuu and I think that's a shame . I don't want to single out the poster I'm referring to here but I think we all know what I'm talking about. It's a bit below-the-belt to disagree and follow that with comments like "your poor dog and puppies " etc. I don't think that's fair. You've helped so many people here (myself included) and while I admire your passion and commitment to educating people I think it could be done in a gentler fashion.

Basing advice on experience with one dog is, of course, unreasonable but this is a discussion topic and just like the threads on parenting we're all free to share what has worked for our individual families. Posters with aggressive dogs should be seeking advice from vets/behaviourists/trainers independently as that is, obviously, a clear risk to human safety.

Terrier, there is a HUGE difference between "Bullying" and "It's a bit below-the-belt"

I find your 'I can tell...and I think that's a shame ' to be very Passive Aggresive, which I find underhand and dishonest. But I wouldn't even call that bullying.

I do however agree with your sentence "Posters with aggressive dogs should be seeking advice from ...behaviourists..." Which is what Minimuu is I believe, so Flatbread disagreeing with her, and giving erroneuous advice against her is a bit daft - and dangerous TBH. I'm not surprised Minimuu gets annoyed.

She wasn't giving erroneous advice here, LED, but rather sharing on a discussion topic. She's disagreeing but not giving dangerous advice. This isn't a thread where a poster is asking for help and is clearly being given incorrect information. We're discussing theories of behaviourism and how they apply to dog training.

If a poster has had an unfortunate experience or made a mistake with her dog I don't think she deserves to be discredited and met with open hostility on every dog-related thread when clearly she's trying to do the right thing for her animals.

btw, in positive reinforcement, the treat should be given AFTER the positive act has been performed (otherwise it is bribery, e.g., if you give the dog a treat before it releases the bone) This is erroneous and dangerous advice and could lead to an untrained, inexperienced owner being bitten - which will no doubt lead to even more dogs being given up and PTS as vicious

The positive reinforcement school has a lot to offer, but the gross simplification and a blindness to coupling it with any form of correction makes this shallow approach just a fad (maybe it is just an MN thing?) openly hostile and sarcastic

Pot, kettle?

(and still, I cannot see any evidence of bullying)

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say as the dog has to let go of the bone to take the treat so he is being rewarded after letting go (the desired response). Perhaps it wasn't worded clearly? I think we're assuming that we're using a verbal command (ie; "leave it") simultaneously? For the benefit of inexperienced owners could you clarify how you would handle that situation as per positive dog training and how that differs from the advice given in the quote above.

Is this a thread about a thread?

The thread that Flatbread is talking about where she said herself that her advice may cause the dog to bite? well that was Dangerous advice.

I could and can if people are interested explain counter conditioning and desensitization if you want (although many posters on here know about it already and use it frequently) which is what would happen if you gave a piece of food to enable the owner to retrieve a "stolen" item from a dog.

The particular owner was so terrified that she had to use her mobile phone to call for help to her OH who was in the same house rather than walk past the dog so again Flatbreads advice was very dangerous to her.

I do give a toss and spend all my working days training owners to train their dogs, and to save dogs from being rehomed and pts when owners are at the end of their tether and the dogs are shut down and reactive often due to dominant training methods. What I do not give a toss about is people refusing to learn and educate themselves.

Flatbread has asked for basic advice on here from feeding puppies to how to get rid of puppies and then says that she knows better than many experienced people on here.

Off out now though to catch a plane to give a seminar in USA about Positive training methods - shame I don't know what I am talking about I'll let the audiences see this thread and see what they think after the seminar.

Terrier, I'm not sure I know what you mean. I don't have time to read every thread on the doghouse so apologies if I've missed any nuances. I only see a difference of opinion, but if you really see bullying the thing to do is report it to MNHQ. I don't think we all have to agree. I've learnt a lot here, including from differences of opinion.

I think it's become a thread about a number of threads and everyone has acknowledged your expertise on the subject of dogs and training, Minimuu. Many people here have benefitted from your generous dispensation of advice and the advice of other experts in the doghouse and litter tray. However, I don't think there is any call for the way that a particular poster has been treated, regardless of the fact that you disagree with her views. It's ostracizing and it's not nice and it creates an atmosphere where MNetters may discontinue posting on a topic when they could continue to benefit from the wealth of knowledge here.

Moving on; laying out exactly how positive training methods work in dangerous situations is a great idea because as someone who has used counter-conditioning with great success for some of my dog's undesirable (but not dangerous) behaviours I'm still unclear on how that would apply in some of the scenarios mentioned above. I understand how you'd use it to prevent guarding behaviours from escalating but what exactly should one do in a (non-specific ) scenario where an owner was cornered with a dog that was resource-guarding? I'm guessing in the name of human safety you'd just throw the sausages so you could make your escape? I think I'd be terrified too and it would be a very worrying situation if there were children in the house.

Minimuu, um, the op in that case was following your advice to ply the dog with food when it was resource guarding. And the dog continued growling. (Probably ate the butter and sausages and felt pretty good about being in charge of food in that household). You still haven't resolved the situation, except to tell the OP to keep doing the same, when the dog is growling, without any leave it command. At this point you have rewarded the dog for aggressive and dangerous behaviour.

If that owner had done what I did with my puppy early on, e.g., making the puppy sit or get a signal before getting food, she would probably not be having issues of resource guarding. My dog respects me and I manage to do it with stuffing her face with food.

It is really simple and frankly, I do have to wonder about your credentials. In my experience, the people who keep banging on about their credentials are pretty poor at what they do.

A simple analytic, common sense approach can work wonders, bringing up children or pets is hardly rocket science.

oops, typo- manage to do it without stuffing her face with food.

Flatbread, "in your experience"? You don't have any experience. You have a dog. An unspayed dog. You are a back yard breeder with mongrel puppies.

Vs Minimuu with years of experience, hundreds of positive outcomes and none of the passive agression. You say it may be hardly rocket science, but then so is keeping a complete dog away from a bitch in season.