poodle cross thread.

[ditavonteesed]

Just wanted to let everyone know that this thread has been deleted at my and dogs best friends request. I dont know how much to say so will leave it for dbf to update you further if anyone is wondering why.

That's a shame. It had some very good tips on how to spot puppy farmers and back yard breeders and what you should expect from a reputable breeder, but no doubt you have good reasons.

Maybe DBF or someone with similar knowledge could start a new thread with those tips, for people who are considering a puppy.

I'll add my tip here: Don't do it yourself. Go and get a lovely wee rescue dog. Grown up dogs are so much nicer than puppies and you get the added bonus of feeling all helpfull and heroic

I wondered if we could ask mnhq for a sticky with all those fabulous tips on. what do you think?

I think DBF asked for one a while ago, but no-one really paid much attention. It is a very good idea and we could with one dispelling the myths about rescue dogs and how they must all be child eaters etc.

Afternoon!

Sorry to keep you in suspense. I asked Diva if she might request that the thread was deleted as it brought to light more than just the issue of puppy farming IYSWIM and although it was helpful to prospective buyers it was also becoming a little too helpful to the wrong people too.

THANK YOU DIVA, FOR BEING UNDERSTANDING. :)

I promised Diva that I'd take a screenshot and that I'd re-post everyone's comments whilst avoiding risking more canine lives. Please bear with me whilst I put that together - as I said I feel like crud so my whole body's on a go-slow today. :(

Righty ho... I think that the only way I can do this is to make seperate posts for each comment and post them verbatim, headed by the poster's name and with any potentially damaging info edited out. For ease of reading and for the benefit of clarity I'm also going to pass over some of the less pertinent comments. I hope no-one takes it personally, it's just that I'll be here all night otherwise and will make a cods of it all. :)

But before owt else I must apologise profusely for calling the OP Diva instead of DITA. Why didn't any of you lot pull me up on it, you buggers?! So so sorry, Dita!

So, here goes with Ditavonteesed's opening post:

"everyone seems to have an opinion about poodle crosses. mind you I do tell everyone I know every tiny detail of my life and what is going through my mind, definate lack of an off switch, meant to keep this a secret until we have it, mainly because my mum thinks we cant cope with another dog (but then she didnt think we could cope with one dog, or one child, or another child, or chickens, see a pattern here)

Anyway I have found what looks like a good breeder, my friend has a dog from this breeder and everything I can see checks out, friend visited many times and was incredibly impressed with the set up, we intend also to visit plenty so not basing decision on somebody elses judgement.

Dogs are fully health tested and both parents are pedegree dogs although obviously the puppies arent.
they have waiting lists for litters. Anyway we have decided that we want a springer poodle cross (or sproodle if you will)not for any anti allergy reasons, I know they can moult as much as the next dog, not becasue we only want the best of the 2 breeds, we like both breeds and had been considering both at various times.

So if you have a poodle cross what do you say to the negative assocaiations (hiow much for a cross breed, well actually the same as for a pure breed and I believe the vets costs the same no matter what)(designer dog, arent they all at some point in history) and what other insults can I expect?
Also dog experts, I am going to phone later what questions should I ask the breeder?"

IVYANDGOLD:

"I know people with a labradoodle, and I really want a poofoundland! (standard poodle and newfoundland x) I never venture into this area, why do people get abuse for it? confused For me it would be the lack of shedding hair that was a major factor as I see my brother a lot and loose animal hairs really set off his asthma. Plus I love big dogs, but I'm not keen on poodles, and poofoundlands are apparently slobber-less"

DITAVONTEESED:

"you cant gaurentee they are not going to shed hair (although I think any dog would shed less than a newfoundland), people just seem to be very snobby about them. I think it is because trendy dogs encourage back yard breeders and puppy farms."

ELLANGIRL:

"From the ones I've met, I have found some to be surprisingly large dogs, a standard poodle cross springer will be quite big I imagine. As you say, people (including me) are worried about the puppy farming connotations of breeding these dogs, but you've done your homework, so not so much of a concern. Find out how often they breed from the bitches, and if they've had litters before perhaps?"

WYNKENBLYNKENANDNOD*;

"Just say when people ask, she/he is a crossbreed. We haven't had any nasty comments, just isn't she lovely/lively/bouncy and these days, oh hasn't she calmed down a lot, bet you can't tell her off with a face like that (oh yes I flipping well can !)"

dbf, I really dont think there is any need for you to do that, sounds like a lot of hard work, we can find the info if anyone asks, and could possible start a thread with the imprtsant stuff about criss checking.

DITAVONTEESED:

"they appear to have about 4 litters a year, I will definatley ask though, what is the most that is acceptable, I was thinking no more than every 18months and how old should the bitch have been when she had her first litter, I am thinking 2."

important and cross grrr.

DBF:

"This isn't an insult, it's the truth.

You haven't "found a good breeder". You've found someone who is adding to the huge number of crossbreed dogs already out there, so many in fact that they are dying in their hundreds each week purely for want of homes, purely and simply so that they can line their own pockets.

Well, you did ask."

STOP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! you have quite enough to do.

MULTITASK:

Breeding 4 litters of mongrels a year from [so many] bitches sounds very much like a puppy farm to me. They can gloss it all they like, but breeding that amount of mongrels, adding nothing to either breeds future, they are simply doing it for money! Oh and crossing two breeds isn't just about coat or size its about trainability, character and health.

You or they mention nothing about health checks on parents, all breeds have something that should be tested for and the very least they should be offering is hip scored parents, SA & eyes. Springers have their own set of health tests so really there is so much MORE that can go wrong. It is all fine and dandy people telling you they see a dog on their walk that is cute, they don't live with that dog or know what health tests if any are done.

Having lived with poodles all my life I know how intelligent they are, they crave stimulation, now add into that equation another breed, say springer or cocker with a serious drive to work then you have a full combination of both! A mongrel who is highly intelligent, with a working mind, needing contant stimulation, groomed every 8 weeks and bigger than both parents!

My main concern with these crosses is the reason behind the disire to breed them... MONEY and that is the very last reason you should be breeding dogs. You can justify the silly price for these dogs by saying it costs the same to rear them, well why do the 'designer breeds' cost up to £1000 when either of the pedigree dogs used cost much less - GREED and people stupid enough to pay that much money.

There was a time when people bought a dog for job it was breed to do, not how cute they look!!

MULTITASK:

"Apologies you did say health tested.. but have you actually seen the tests? NO all dogs were not designer dogs at one time.. all dogs were breed to do a job.. no such thing as designer dogs until recently.. when people had more money than sense."

EGGYALLANPOE:

"You have not found a good breeder.

if you want a cross breed, rescue one. you will be saving that dogs life.

Otherwise you will be giving money to an inethical person who breeds far, far too often and only for money."

MIDORI1999:

"I wouldn't entertain any breeder who bred 4 litters per year, they are breeding for money because they certainly aren't keeping a puppy from every litter and if they are breeding crossbreeds they aren't show dogs either.

Bitches should ideally be at least two year sold prior to being bred from and although the KC have other ideas, shouldn't have a litter more often than every year at the absolute maximum, but only if there is a specific reason for this, such as a very small litter that didn't produce the desired gender the first time, but ideally not more than every two years. Two to three litters is also the most any bitch should be expected to produce in her breeding years, although again, the KC do allow more than this."

DITAVONTEESED:

"The reason I am looking at threse breeds is exactly for there characterisitcs,
The breeder I have found (although i am basing all this on their website and the experience of my friend and have yet to phone, visit anbd make my own desicions which I certainly will do) carries out all the health test required for both the breeds, the dogs are well cared for and the puppies are certainly not neglected, ill socialised, or living in unacceptable conditions.

The puppies are no more expensive than the cocker spaniels or springer spaniels that I have found so certainly not £up to 1000 mentioned above.
As I say I certainly intend to find out as much as possible and will not be getting a puppy unless I am 100% happy with the answers given.
I understand the rescue issue (will also be asking what they do with any unsold puppies, puppies returned etc), however a rescue dog is not for us at this moment in time, that is not to say I would not rescue a dog in the future when our circumstances are different, but right now dh says absolute no, every rescue nearby is full to the brink with sbt's and it is heartbreaking but I do not want a bull breed."

DBF

"Please will you tell your husband that rescue does indeed have far too many SBTs but that they also have thousands of other dogs, including puppies. Many Tears is probably the rescue with the most pups at any one time.

If you buy from this "breeder" you will at best be buying from a "back yard breeder" - someone who breeds without regard for the dogs or for breed advancement in order to line their own pockets. This so-called breeder is NOT a genuine, proper dog breeder. The number of litters this one has screams puppy farmer. At least get some solid advice on what to look for in a decent, trustworthy and reputable breeder from Midori1999.

Doesn't it strike you as a little bit fishy that these people are conveniently breeding 4 litters a year when the legal base line for having to have a license and your premises inspected is just one more, at 5 litters per 12 month period?

PLEASE REMEMBER THAT MANY PUPPY FARMERS WILL HAVE A NORMAL HOME AND FAMILY AS A "FRONT" FOR THEIR ILLEGAL BUSINESSES AND THAT THIS IS WHERE YOU WILL BE INVITED TO MEET THE PUPS."

MIDORI1999:

"As I said though, the 4 litter per year is enough to put me off alone as I simply wouldn't support anyone who puts money above the welfare of their dogs and that is what they are doing, breeding is risky for the bitch at best.

People have so many misconceptions about rescue dogs and bull breeds tbh. I used to share some of them. Our staff x lab (with, we suspect a bit of collie) is the most trainable dog I have ever owned and once we move I plan to do obedience and/or agility with him and I suspect he'll be better than me at both!

Why not hang round some dog shows and speak to breeders of cockers and springers about lines which are more 'driven' or whose breeders/owners take part in agility or obedience or work their dogs as well as show them?"

Dita referred us to some further information, to which MIDORI replied:

"Things that bother me at a quick glance are:

-they are prepared to accept a deposit without meeting prospective owners.

-they are prepared for new owners/buyers to only visit once and that is in order to collect the puppy.

• they are charging different prices for different coloured puppies. Why? It doesn't cost more to rear a chocolate puppy than it does a black one.

• although they make a big deal out of saying how important health testin gis, they do not list the KC names of their dogs, nor results of hip scores etc (and elbow scores are also relevant for some of the breds, such as Goldens). Why on earth not?"

EGGYALLANPOE

"ok, there's a load of rubbish - it did claim the resultant springer/poodle cross would be non-shedding (crap) although it was accurate about health testing (ie, that it is necesssary) it mentions that they hope to complete testing of all dogs in 2011 - ie they haven't so far done so.

if you are buying from a breeder you should expect -

1. a money back guarantee
2. detailed questioning and a homecheck
3. contract of sale which prohibits you from breeding
4. paperwork
5. after sales care

they should not to be too keen to sell to you, basically."

SCUTTLEBUTTER:

"Dita, nobody is going to give you "abuse" or "insults" but anyone looking at that website would have alarm bells ringing. Where is the description of what they do with their dogs (working,showing etc. )? Where is what they expect and will ask of prospective purchasers? Why are all the pics so suspiciously edited? No pics of dogs' accommodation.And the address given... makes me think these breeders are not likely to be declaring their income to HMRC. Multiple breeds and crosses is also a HUGE red flag, along with the failure to mention specific health test results for naemd dogs. I could go on but you get the picture."