poodle cross thread.

[ditavonteesed]

Just wanted to let everyone know that this thread has been deleted at my and dogs best friends request. I dont know how much to say so will leave it for dbf to update you further if anyone is wondering why.

DBF (in response to the claim that this breeders' Doodles don't shed)

"Utter rubbish! You cannot guarantee this at all and they shouldn't claim it
They go on to say that shedding can vary from a non-shedding to light/infrequent. That's only strictly true of filial 1 generation dogs AFAIK.

Now... I've just googled their contact mobile number. They've an ad for an adult dog which they no longer want.

1. The ad goes on to say that they are not adverse to the purchaser breeding from this dog and they claim not to have time for her yet have since bred more pups for profit!

2They have no regard if they are getting rid of her.

1. Ditto they have no regard if they are not going to even spay her but are going to let any old bod breed from her and are selling with papers to accomodate this. Ask a decent rescue if they'll give you the papers for one of their dogs - they'll react in shock or laugh at you.

1. They are advertising on Pets4Homes, an entirely irresponsible, disreputable website which I know through personal experience as a rescuer to be a dodgy one as do many of my fellow rescuers. No decent owner advertises a dog for sale like that, especially not on a website like Pets4Homes - you want a new home for your dog, you approach rescue, not sell her for profit.

1. There is mention of other dogs. Dogs, plural. Puppy farmer alert! Or at least, the very least, shitty, irresponsible backyard breeder. Again... now many dogs??? And how much time do they have for them (or don't they, considering they are getting rid of this dog?). If they have time for "other dogs" plus the pups they're breeding what's their real reason for dumping this one.

1. How the feck have they time to care for or socialise all the pups they are breeding?

It gets worse!

They had another litter (L1) sold within the first half of this year. Advertised in another internet free ads paper, again something that a decent, reputable breeder would NEVER do - a decent one would have homes lined up BEFORE breeding their bitch (and don't get me started on the suggestion that a prospective owner should be allowed to pay to reserve a pup before even meeting the breeder or the breeder having the chance to "vet" the bloody owner! )

Another ad for this breeder shows a large litter of pups (not those you are looking at I presume.). Spaniel X Standard Poodle, which to my mind is an inadvisable cross as the mum is the Spaniel and could easily have got into difficulties or even died labouring and birthing pups from a considerably larger breed of stud dog.

These people also have advertised a Lab for stud on that mobile number. So they have time for the profit-making stud dog but not the adult bitch they are selling?

I note too that on one of the ads they say that they can also offer pups bred by another family member.

Remember how I said it was fishy that they have cleverly bred, according to your estimate, 4 litters "per year" when they must by law be registered if they breed just one more litter per 12 month period, so only just avoiding the need to be inspected and licensed by the council? And bear in mind that this could mean that they are indeed producing more than 5 litters per the legally permitted 12 month period anyway of course.

One of the ways in which puppy farmers tried to get round the law which says that you can only avoid licensing if you have less than 5 litters per 12 month period was to use other family members as breeders or to use their addresses and/or premises to ensure that the puppy farmers were "under the legal radar". The law recognised that and now it is illegal for any family to have more than 4 litters for sale in any 12 month period even if those litters are bred and kept in different properties. So, you cannot legally have, say, 4 litters which you sell for profit as well as having a son who sells a litter for profit himself even if he breeds and/or sells from a different premises. There's no direct proof that this is the case here, but let;s just say that if it waddles, has a big beak, feathers and quacks, it's probably a duck!

So we have people with Spaniels, Poodles, an adult Spaniel they haven't time for and have thus abandoned to an outside kennel and sold on dodgy free ads with papers, allowing her to be bred from claiming that they have no time for her and yet they have bred at least 2 and probably more litters since and are offering a dog for stud.

On the strength of the heartless sale of the adult dog alone, do you really want to deal with these people?

This particular "breeder" is at best irresponsible and misguided and imho and ime bloody dodgy and that you'll be not only promoting by example and encouraging cruel, heartless and irresponsible people if you buy from this lot but that you could well be giving yourself and your family heartache and huge vets bills too. So yes, I'll beg that you approach rescue, but if you don't care to then I STILL will beg you not to buy from these people but that you take advice from Midori and find a reputable breeder.

And I haven't finished yet but am off to investigate further!"

SCUTTLEBUTTER:

"If they are advertising on Pets4HOmes, then it's game over. DO NOT BUY FROM THEM."

I think you deserve mucho vino now DBF

And would you bloody believe it, my computer has truncated the screenshot of last of the posts!

And I've only just seen Dita's messages upthread!

The upshot of the advice on identifying a puppyfarmer is this:

1. Anyone breeding more than one breed of dog is to be avoided. Full stop.

1. It is recommended that you always Google and check all phone numbers to see just how many other dogs they are selling. Put the number in inverted commas and Google the number both as a continuous number and with a break between digits - ie "07777123456" AND "07777 123456". Likewise a London number should be Googled every which way "020 8200 2000", "0208 200 2000" and "02082002000" etc.

1. Google the email address. See what these people have on Facebook or You Tube. If you can't find an email address online call them up and ask them to email you pics of the dogs.

1. Study the photos - are they "doctored"? Puppies all on the same cute cuddly cushion? hmmm...

1. Google the name, in inverted commas, and variations of it - "Edward Brown", "Ed Brown", "Ted Brown" and "Teddy Brown" for example.

1. Check the address out - Google IS your friend, isn't it! Have a look on Google satellite maps. Remember that posh house does not necessarily equal reputable breeder.

1. Are you offered a pup without seeing him or meeting the breeder? Run like fuck, just tip me or ScuttleButter off as you do please.

1. Ditto to seeing the pup but not his parents. and when you meet the parents, does the bitch LOOK as if she's just raised a litter? It's not unknown for puppy farmers to show you a completely unrelated bitch... look at her teats.

There's loads more I've forgotten and besides it's time I went downstairs and got a glass of wine to ease my gland infection let others get a word in edgeways.

Suffice to say that on the strength of no more information than the type which has been given here I recently I found that an unregistered, unlicensed "breeder" did not, as they claimed, fall within the law and have less than 5 litters in any 12 month period.

I discovered that they were puppy farmers who have at least six litters in the past 9 months and quite possibly several more. All it took to find this out was a little time, a laptop and Google.

Funny you should mention the vino, Dooin... I have a nice red waiting in the kitchen for me. :o

that sounds like a good plan, hope your feeling a bit better. I want to thank you again for everything you have done.

thank you DBF for taking the time to do this. thank you also to Dita for posting about getting another dog and bringing all the information on what to look out for to our attention

was the thread deleted becausethe puppy farmer was named on it and cried defamation?

they often do.

i would welcome a sticky post/thread with good resoures for finding good rescues/ breeders.

yes i would welcome the same as eggy.

DBF could you ask mnhq? as you have so much time an' all

Completely endorse what DBF has posted. To add a couple more points, the local authority will have a register of licensed breeders, and as a member of the public you are entitled to study the register and to see any inspection reports. More and more Councils now have the registers online.

If the "breeder" has a website there is a useful website called "Whois." You type the URL into the website and it will often give you the details of the site owner including address and date of ownership - this is a handy way of linking a named person to a particular site.

Most local Councils will have all planning applications online. Once you know the address/postcode, enter this into local authority planning database to see what, if any planning applications have been lodged - online archives usually go back five to ten years. Very handy for kennel premises, change of use for business applications and so on.

As well as Googling the names of the people, if any dogs are named, Google them. If they are active in showing circles, or breed clubs etc there's a strong chance of them showing up - you can see what legitimate activities they do. Also Google the kennel name (prefix of all dog's names bred by that breeder) to see what comes up such as show results, descriptions on breed club websites and so on.

Use Companies House to see if the people are named directors and if you find any companies linked to them, you can check that out (small fee for some of this). 192.com is also v handy for checking who lives in a property, who with and for how long, also approximate ages. Again, a small fee, but if you are doing some serious research, then well worth it.

Also check Google images as well as basic text search - pics are often informative, and see if they are on Facebook.

The Google Street maps thingy is very handy as you can get at least a basic look at the premises. By doing a Google of the address, you can also see when it changed hands, how much was paid for it (if sold in hte past few years) and so on. Again, good background stuff.

Interesting how alltheyoungdoods (I think this was the poster's name anyway) comments have not been mentioned , obviously positive words for Poodle crosses are not to be tollerated on the dog pages of Mumsnet, despite there being a large number of Poodle cross owners on the forum?

I cannot say the words as elloquently as all theyoungdoods did but please do not assume that everyone with an interest in or who breeds Doodle crosses is a direct decendent of Belzebub himself. While the points made about this 'breeder' were very relevant and I'm all for educating re puppy farms, there are good breeders of Doodle crosses in this country. Bad breeding affects Pedigree breeds too, it is not entirely the domain of Poodle crosses, I would hate for people to be misled, Poodle cross = bad, Pedigree = good, it doesn't work like that. Each breeder should be assessed on their own merits.

As for Poodle crosses not being bred to work, try telling that to the breeders who regularly donate puppies to Canine Partners and other similar charities who train dogs as therapy/service dogs or those who have purchased their own Labradoodle puppies and undertaken to train them (with the help of the appropriate organisations) to do important jobs assisting their owners with household chores, being alert dogs for medical conditions and companions for children affected by Autism/Aspergers. Whatever the reasons for choosing Poodle crosses I'm sure the people whose lives have been changed for the better by their wonderful dogs who have been the result of good, careful breeding feel the dogs and their breeders are worth their weight in gold! Many years ago the role if a working dog was far different to what it is today, to put in human terms there are far more opportunities for dogs today grin.

Please don't tar all Poodle cross owners/breeders with the same brush, as the owner of three wonderful Labradoodles I can tell you I hate puppy farming and poor breeding with a passion but I am not blinkered to the fact that this does not begin and end with Poodle crosses and needs dealt with across the board.

the reason alltheyoungdoods posts were not mentioned is that they were towards the end of the thread and dbf has mentioned that her computer lost the last pages, the fact that she has gone to all the effort to repost what she has is wonderful.

This is not about poodle crosses (although I know the title would suggest that) I have several friends with wonderful doodles which is why i was considering one myself, I can understand the need to defend the breed, the advice is for any breeder and kc registration does not seem to make any difference and is certainly no guarentee of a good breeder.

I watched a program a while ago where the original breeder of the first doodles was explaining that he made the cross to be a guide dog for people with allergies. Unfortunaly as with any breed which becomes popular the bad breeders pop up (chocolate labs anyone, everyone I have ever met has been wonderful but you hear about them all being mad).

as you seem to have seen the original thread i am confused as to how you could form the above opinion.

afaik only canine partners train labradoodles as assistance dogs and this only started fairly recently. support dogs, who train seizure alert, autism, and disability assistance dogs will train people's own pets and also rescue dogs from the pound in sheffield. these dogs then go into foster and once trained are placed with a family who have been assessed as being suitable to home an assistance dog

btw my posts werent cut and pasted either. not a conspiracy, i just assumed they werent relevant to the objective of the new thread

x posts dita. yes, thats right that post was on the last page.

for accuracy i should mention that support dogs have accepted a few labs from breeders. i have met a lot of their dogs and most are heinz 57 dogs

support dogs trainer was in the park a couple of weeks ago and was trying to nick (light heartedly) my terrier as she said she would be a fantastic support dog, aparently terriers are very good at emptying washing machines. totally off supject now. Was training a lovely black lab that was a failed guide dog.

Evenin' all

I do understand why my comments have not been posted. The only thing I would say is can we please please get this thread renamed, ideally as a sticky, on HOW TO SPOT & AVOID A PUPPY FARM, because that really is the key point here and it's a damn useful reference tool .

This is not a debate on cross breeds, and these issues are not limited to doodle/sproodle/whatever dogs. The point I was trying to drive home in my post on the other thread, as HereBefore also mentions, is that there are irresponsible and immoral breeding of all kinds of dogs. I would HATE anyone to think 'Oh, I can't get a doodle because all breeders are crooks, so I'll go and get a Labrador, and because they're KC-registered so I don't have to bother looking at health records etc.'

I don't think the original post was about doodles really. It quickly became a thread about identifying dodgy breeders. IIRC, as well as doodles, the breeder had a variety of other dogs including springers, poodles, cockers and pugs. In this case, the breeder happened to be one who had doodles for sale.

dita - yes my terrier absolutely loves emptying the washing machine for me when we have done fundraising for support dogs my terrier makes retrieving a tennis ball out of the washing machine look easy peasy

Precisely, please can these threads be directed at Puppy Farmers no matter what breed/cross they choose. I missed that fact that the last page had been missed containing alltheyoungdoods' post, I apogise for this. However some of the comments, particularly on the previous thread, were directed towards Poodle crosses in particular and were IMO at best uninformed.

i do know of crap breeders who claim to have donated dogs to canine partners on their websites, but have not in fact done so.

again check, check, check....

to my mind part of the bill for 'reputable breeder' is that they show or compete in some way...not many x-breeders can claim they do this?

HereBefore, I'm sorry. I genuinely don't know if the remarks you refer to were some of the ones lost by my pc or if I edited them and TBH I'm feeling rough and am knackered, trying to keep up with posts and threads and run a RL so forgive me for not checking the reason. Whichever it is, it is NOT because I'm trying to gloss over or delete things I disagree with... it's either shitty pc- C&P syndrome gone wrong or because, as I did with many of MY OWN comments, I edited in an effort to keep on topic (ie puppy farming and what to look out for) and not muddy the water. I've explained this more fully in the thread "I thought this was a public forum", if you'd like to look at it.

It was said upthread, "there are irresponsible and immoral breeding of all kinds of dogs."

I couldn't agree more. I say it as a rescuer, Midori says it as a responsible breeder. I'm not anti-Doodle, I know some perfectly nice, if somewhat nutty, ones. I am, and I have NEVER made a secret of this, anti breeding whilst we have so many dogs already here who die in their hundreds each month in pounds for want of homes. However I did say in the original post something which I edited and which I maybe for my own sake shouldn't - that I was not banging the rescue drum to Dita but that I suggested that if she wanted a puppy and was unprepared to go to rescue (although I suggested one which always has pups and offered to find her other rescues which do) she asked Midori for advice and found a reputable breeder as the one she was looking at is clearly not so. My logic was that I accepted that she might not consider rescue but that I didn't want her buying a potentially unsocialised and unhealthy pup from a puppy farm and I didn;t want her to inadvertantly encourage puppy farming. I think that's probably the first time I've EVER suggested that someone found a breeder instead of went to rescue!

"i do know of crap breeders who claim to have donated dogs to canine partners on their websites, but have not in fact done so"

sadly true

Whether showing or competing with your dogs makes you or them any more worthy is debateable IMO however there are many Labradoodle owners who show with the view to getting through to Scrufts, many compete at agility, obedience and many make fabulous working dogs in traditional fields as well as assistance dogs. Yes of course check, check, check re donations to Canine Partners etc to verify donations but please do this with any breeder.

One of the glaring things on this thread and the previous IMO is tge suggestion that an F1 will be less likely to shed than subsequent gens and I would like to clear this up, this is far from the case, F1's are much more likely to shed (you should see the state of my floors and all the hair is from my F1, neither of the others sheds), multigens and Poodle backcrosses are less likely to shed but this can never be guaranteed. I'm passionate about my dogs and hate seeing them misrepresented.