Vallhala and other rescuers, please help if you can!

[purplepidjin]

A friend of mine rescued a dog last year who had come in from a very abusive home. He's a big lad, 9st (not sure of breed) and absolutely beautiful. The problem is that he's terrified of everything and it's got to the point that she thinks he's going to bite. He's already tried to nip her son (who has AS and has struggled to bond with the dog) and currently has to be walked on a muzzle.

She's pretty much decided he needs to be PTS, but if you know of an experienced home where he could get the attention he needs please let me know. I will add that my friend is an experienced dog owner but she's a single mum and just can't afford the behavouralists etc. It's breaking her heart to even consider PTS

There's a photo here

As I say he's a gorgeous boy, really sweet when he's comfortable with you, prefers women.

I don't expect you to work miracles, and it may be he needs out of this life so he can be reborn into a better one. He's due in for an operation on Thursday, and the official story will be that he doesn't survive the anaesthetic

I am very upset and emotional as well as having no experience. I keep telling people on here that, because I hope it'll help them understand why I'm not coming across well.

The dog is booked for an operation tomorrow which tbh is risky anyway for him. This dog is brilliant with children however if another dog were present he would misinterpret their bhehaviour, attack, and the child would get hurt. Have I explained that right? The dog is also aggressive to adult male people with no warning. For example, if an aa man approached the car to fix it he wold get attacked.

Have I found the right words yet?

The throwing in the line about "i hope it's not your child that gets maimed" crap was bloody sick. I'd suggest you just leave now to be honest.

purple - sorry you are getting lammbasted on here. If all you are doing is trying to help a friend then well done. It's a shame though, that she didn't come on here herself and give first hand information. I hope the dog doesn't get PTS. You will feel forever guilty and bereft. I understand your comments about someone getting injured etc. Hope you find a solution that avoids the death of this misunderstood and beautiful dog

I still don't understand your friends reasoning tbh. A dog aggressive dog will not turn on a child just because he spots another dog. And I very much doubt your friend would leave her 'aggressive' dog in the car if she knew the AA man was going to be fixing it, that's also silly.

The dog could be walked with a muzzle, while in training. Just because your freind cannot train this dog, what makes her think an experienced rescuer, who deals mainly with problem dogs cannot? Especially since he would have more time to dedicate to training the dog than a single mother.

And I don't get the reasoning that the dog should be killed tomorrow because training might not work. Why take away all his chances when training might work?

2T I'm here because she's too upset to take this kind of flak so I volunteered to do it for her. She is following from a distance while she deals with her own emotions

After long discussions between owner, rescuer, vets, trainers and previous rescue (ie experienced people - I'm just moral support) there is simply nowhere to go

Every time I log in I promise myself I'll leave this thread must find more will power I just don't have the knowledge or experience to discuss these issues

Forget the previous rescue. They are not experienced. They do not give a crap about the dog once it's out of their care. You don't need experience to see that. Forget the vet. Vets are not behaviouralists. The other trainer clearly is not very good if your friend has worked with him twice a week for a year, with no improvement. Unless your friend hasn't been doing any follow up or following the advise during the other walks? In which case another home would have more time to continue this training.

Can you explain more about what Rob said and why you think he can't help? There are always other options. No dog is untrainable or un rehome-able.

Judgey pants much dooin?

You know even less about the situation than I do and I already admitted I know eff all

Judgey pants much dooin?

You know even less about the situation than I do and I already admitted I know eff all

I judge people who murder dogs, yes. I am not ashamed to admit that.

Why does your friend believe Rob cannot help? If you can explain this in more detail perhaps we could try and come up with other ways to help. You said yourself that there could be a suitable home for this dog somewhere.

Purple the rescue your friend got the dog from is not reputable. You say that mistakes were made and the people who made these mistakes are no longer involved in the rescue, but if that was true and the rescue was now running how it should be they would be insisting they take the dog back to try and find it a more suitable home. That is how reputable, no kill rescues work. I might not know enough about this situation, but I know enough to know that. The 'rescue' is either a pound or Gumtree. If it was the pound the only thing they are interested in is their profit margins. This is why they are advising your friend to murder her dog instead of take him back to them to be homed into a more suitable home.

I'm sure Dooin is just trying to help, Purple. I didn't read it as her being judgy. She is just trying to get to the bottom of what happened between your friend and Rob, as according to K9999 Rob has said that the owner has made the decision to have the dog put to sleep.

Dooin is right in saying either the behaviourist is rubbish, or your friend has not followed through with the training. A more experienced person and a better behaviourist are quite possibly able to help the dog and your friend is appearing to be denying them the opportunity, and denying the dog a potentially happy life after his initial abuse by opting to have him killed.

"he couldn't guarantee that he wouldn't need to put the dog to sleep anyway."

I'm genuinely shocked and somewhat distressed. That's something I have never known Rob to say and an option which he only once to my knowledge even considered but then having dismissed the idea as morally unaceptable to him, beat himself up for even thinking of it. I'll be in contact with him later, maybe throw some light on it all then Dooinmecleanin.

Purple, what Dooin has said makes perfect sense. Please listen to her. For your information I do know what it's like to have a formerly abused and unreliable dog like your friend's. He's beside me now and has been with my family and I for nearly 8 years, over which time I have worked with him and he has overcome most of his issues. Those few occasions upon which there is uncertainty are managed by commonsense and forethought. Besides, you get to see a lot in rescue. Please don't tell me I don't understand, that's very insulting.

I've tried throughout this to give you the benefit of the doubt and keep my temper in check despite a changing story (he's child-safe/he'll hurt a child), an apparent determination to justify killing (is there not a muzzle in this world to fit this dog comfortably? How about a custom made one?) and a refusal to name a "rescue" which lies and deceives, though I suspect that this is Portsmouth City Dog Kennels Council Pound. I've been accused of attacking you, patronised and directly or indirectly accused of not understanding DDA, what it's like to deal with difficult dogs or the rescue situation and set-up and we've all been mislead.

I kept saying that there could be a misunderstanding when I learned that the owner has decided to kill her dog. I wanted to be fair on you and give you a chance to come back and put me right.

But I'm not wrong am I? Rather than search for another rescue or behaviouralist to help the owner is going to murder her dog.

What's more, you were telling us that the owner was actually on the phone to Rob as you typed and that there was "hopefully a positive result", that "the alternative we have been looking for has now hopefully been found" and gave us some story of fostering a pup whilst the big dog was rehabilitated when in actual fact Rob came off the phone to your friend knowing that she had decided to take the option of killing her dog.

Either Rob's lying or you were.

Call me a cynic, but....

OP i have reread the thread and cut and pasted some of the things you have said. not because i am want an argument over them but in the hope it may help clarify things. please could you read and clarify - either here or with your friend? my aim is to avoid the dog being pts

?He is fine off lead, but is aggressive to other dogs when on the lead. He is currently on a head collar, and a muzzle is the next step?
OR
?He's got a muzzle, it's very uncomfortable for him due to the shape of his face, and he is walked wearing it.

And ?He's currently slobbering all over my jeans wanting me to throw his ball
OR
?They are in the Portsmouth area (I'm not, btw, which is one reason I don't know the most recent issues. Last Forest walk we had, there was ice on the puddles!)?
?He is clicker and recall trained, last time I was with then on a walk (February?) his behaviour was impeccable. I don't know what has changed since then.?

And ?He's not child aggressive? ?I have seen her take a skinny, half dead dog shivering in the corner and turn him into a child-safe, healthy, shiny, alert and happy animal?
Or
?If a dog, any dog, harms a child that dog will be pts by law. One of the things influencing whatever decision is taken is whether to wait until that stage or whether it might be better to pre-empt?

And ?The rescue has at no time said they want the dog pts?
OR
?She has spoken to the rescue she got him from and has been told that PTS may be the best option.?

Purple, for clarification, I DO know what it is like to have a dog that is maimed, starved, beaten, neglected and abused - we have three of them lying on various sofas and beds as I type. If I were to tell you their stories, it would break your heart. Strangely enough, I still have all my limbs, and fingers. So please don't tell me I don't know what it's like. That's actually hugely offensive for those of us on this thread who are actively involved with dog rescue and welfare issues.

Even now, you are still trotting out the "risky operation" line. Not only are you slagging off rescues, you are also suggesting a vet would knowingly put an animal through a procedure that is likely to kill them. What you actually mean is that you HOPE the dog will die on the table, thus saving your "friend" from the decision to kill the dog. Is there anyone else you can blame while you're at it?

And every time we call you out on your many inconsistencies, you come out with the "I don't have the knowledge or experience" line - which to me looks like throwing a hissy fit in an attempt to avoid answering difficult questions. I still don't believe your friend adores this dog - if she did, she'd be on here herself asking for help in tackling the behaviours which so far, haven't amounted to very much by your description and are all common issues among dogs.

I strongly suspect that you posted here in the expectation that some kindly mug from a rescue would hear your tale of woe and instantly offer to take the dog off your friend's hands, with no harsh questions, simply because you played the "might hurt a child" joker. Unfortunately, as you've found, it doesn't work like that.

Purple what do you mean by this bit 'however if another dog were present he would misinterpret their bhehaviour'? Is this dog out and out dog aggressive as in the second he spots another dog on the horizon a red mist descends and he must kill the other dog or is it that meetings with other dogs frequently go wrong and can escalate into an aggressive siutation?

Because the second situation is sooo easy to solve. I had the second situation with my ex poundie. He's still not perfect, he still will not ignore passing dogs, but I don't need to panic that he will start a fight if an off leash dog approaches us.

Poor dog.
No one can help if the 'truth' keeps changing

We've been criticised for "judging" and yet the OP and her friend, neither of whom are experts or behaviouralists, have judged that this poor dog will hurt a child and they have judged that he is to be killed although he has done nothing wrong.

More inconsistancies abound, this is bloody ridiculous. Despite the fact that Rob told me that the owner has decided to kill her dog, despite the fact that Purple isn't denying it but is attempting to justify it, she is still maintaining that the dog whom the owner intends to kill is going in for a routine cyst op tomorrow.

So which is it? Is the dog going to be killed tomorrow or operated on?

No... don't bother replying because the answer is right up there at the top on your title thread isn't it Purple? Your very first post states,

"He's due in for an operation on Thursday, and the official story will be that he doesn't survive the anaesthetic"

Your friend had decided this poor dog's fate before you even wrote your OP.

She'd decided to kill her dog based on something he hasn't done and neither you nor she are qualified to judge that he ever will. She's even got the excuse ready to tell the kids... all you both wanted from us lot, parents and rescuers on here, was validation, not suggestions of help because you aren't interested in that. You and your friend wanted people to tell you there, there, you've done all you can, the dog is beyond help, it's okay to kill him.

Well fuck off, both of you, because it's not and never will be okay to kill a healthy animal.

Judging? Too bloody right I'll judge someone who is intent on killing a healthy animal, much less then lies, deceives and expects me to validate their heartless cruelty.

Clearly all the dog rescuers are very emotional about this situation and are not helping the OP. If the dog owner did read this thread what would she think, she'd think fuck off, you aren't helping, you're judging and throwing insults. Where are the alternatives, they're not here. It's sad that no-one here has provided the OP with a sensible alternative. This Rob guy can't help, the RL behaviourist can't help either....where else can the owner turn?

I think everyone needs to take a step back and stop flaming the OP, who is NOT the dog's owner and only came on this board to get some help. I am not reading as many inconsistencies as you guys all are. For example, the OP may be with the dog at the moment, but if she doesn't see the dog that often, how is she to know all the dog's behaviours witnessed herself- she's going by the owner's information only.

I feel for the dog's owner. It must be difficult and stressful, not knowing what the best thing to do is and being given conflicting advice. Is there nothing else you guys can recommend, no other contacts you have in that area?

We don't know that Rob said he cannot help iwantadog. The op has not clarified what happened there, we were led to believe that he would take the dog and attempt to train it, but op's friend declined his offer.

If she comes back and explains why then I know she will be offered more help and more options, but it is seeming like she had already made up her mind on what she was going to do before she started the thread.

I hope I am wrong and that she will come back soon so more help can be given.

The rescues and trainers I work with (from a distance, other posters are much more involved in rescue and see this far more than me) are too far away to be of any practical help and only take local dogs, but I know other posters have contacts much closer to the op.

Doris Banham Trust would be one to try. I know they have foster homes all around the country because I was going to be assesed to foster from them. And Scallywags was mentioned earlier.

Yes this is horrible and heart-breaking. If I could get my hands on the people who hurt these dogs in the first place there would need to be space for me in a no-kill rescue

I have contacts across the UK and in other parts of the world too, Iwant. However the owner's mind is clearly made up and was from the outset as the original post demonstrates.

If you can't see the inconsistancies which remain even now the OP you're reading a different thread to the rest of us.

The OP told us that she was right there as the owner was on the phone to Rob and that a happy solution had been found and PTS "averted", yet Rob tells me that no such solution was agreed and instead that the owner had told him that she was opting to kill. Either the OP or Rob is lying. And it ain't Rob.

Help has been offered - and has been rejected, even down to the excuse that a muzzle is uncomfortable. (That'll be the muzzle that the dog is already wearing but will also be "the next step", depending on which version of the OP's story you wish to believe).

The OP has been asked to help rescuers and the wider public by naming the alleged "rescue" which claims to have a no-kill policy but which in fact advocates killing. She refuses to do so. Heaven forbid that a rescuer should in good faith place a dog into that rescue when they are not as they claim to be. The OP's refusal to be helpful will cost that dog his life. Rescuers can only work to improve standards within rescue centres and carry out good practice if they know all the facts. You want me to obtain a rescue place for your dog? Sure I can but don't blame me when the rescue kills your dog because I didn't know the rescue I placed him in was dodgy. Blame the OP.

The insults came from the OP who has accused rescuers on here of not understanding, not being aware of the DDA, that the dog will kill or maim and child and that "I hope it's not your child that is maimed or killed by a dog that fails to be rehabilitated... ", which has understandably offended. She has persisted in arguing with those who know the system, dog rescue and the law on it exceptionally well that the "rescue" from which the dog came is experienced, reputable and no-kill, despite the fact that it clearly isn't. Go put this on the forums of LurcherLink, DogPages, BigGSD and soforth, ask them if you don't believe me.

But be prepared for far more flak than I can give. The OP's friend is a timewaster and a timely reminder of why I decided to take a far lesser role in dog rescue - not because of the dogs but because of people who lie, deceive, make it up as they go along and only hear what they want to hear.

Thank you iwanta that's spot on.

I've reported myself and asked for the thread to go. I can't give enough information to get the help I need. I will text my friend with the doris banham trust details.

Discussions between rob, my friend and the rescue concluded that all the things he could do had already been tried. There were lots of phone calls (and tears) trying to find a solution. I was excited that we may have found one but it didn't work out. With hindsight I would have waited to post. Please consider how my friend felt to be so close then be disappointed.

The dog's behaviour is currently heavily controlled with praise and rewards. He is only walked in remote places, something rob's location prohibits. This is one example of many many things taken into consideration.

I have since discovered that several accredited behaviourists have been involved. I have provided information as I have received it and didn't intend to drip feed although it has turned out that way.

The original rescuer is as upset as my friend at this situation. In their 2 decades of experience this is only the fourth case they have had like it. I will not name them because they don't deserve any negative publicity.

To be a happy dog he needs a couple of acres in a rural location, an experienced owner, no other dogs and no men. No under threes because he doesn't know if they're people or toys. He needs intensive behavioural work so a new owner would need to be well off. He has digestive intolerances and needs a raw food diet. The list goes on

"The original rescuer is as upset as my friend at this situation. In their 2 decades of experience this is only the fourth case they have had like it. I will not name them because they don't deserve any negative publicity."

And other dogs don't deserve to die at their suggestion and encouragement or in their "rescue" either.

Think about that please.

I grant you that Rob's location is far from ideal. I will warn you now that I doubt if Trudi will be able to help either, don't know why she has been suggested specifically but as much as she's a great saver of the bull breed etc I don't think her lot have any more chance than any other, purely due to space and number of dogs already cared for. I have a phone number for her, I can dig it out if it helps but I'm not confident that it will.

As I said right up there /\ I apologised in advance if I was wrong but, whether by convenience, accident or design, we were misled and went from believing that Rob could and would help to being told by the man himself that this was entirely inaccurate and that the owner had decided to have the dog killed. What the feck are we supposed to think or feel?

And what are we supposed to feel when we see in rescues (and some of us own for ourselves) dogs like this one, which have been successfully turned around?

On another note, has the owner seen these?

I hope Trudi can help. I apologise for getting the wrong end of the stick op, although your posts were confusing, I can understand that you were upset and maybe not thinking straight.

Is Trudi from Doris Banham? I suggested them merely because I know they have dogs in foster around the country and are a big supporter of the bull breeds. I don't know anyone personally from there I was just grasping at straws.

In your friend's position op, I would be phoning any and every rescue and behaviouralist I could find, just incase someone could help or knew of someone who could help.

You'd all decided the dog's fate when you posted here - this wasn't a cry for help, it was a cry for validation and when people on here took a bloody good stab at trying to get the help that was superficially asked for - you started changing the story, started trying to play the "it could be a child" and then the "hope it's your child" trump cards and now you're rallying people from around the site to say what horrid people we all are.

You/your friend (I doubt it's a friend tbh) are the ones planning murder because a sentient being's become too much like fucking hard work.

Oh and then you go running to the mods to get the thread taken away when you don't get the "ooooh go on it sounds really bad and isn't your "friend" a saint for rehoming this poor animal and trying - just have it put down because it's only an animal". Jeez if the story IS true - you take on a damaged dog you EXPECT problems... fuck I expected all kinds from my rescue dog - dog aggression, house destruction, possibly people issues to have to work on - that's what I bloody well anticipated could have happened... I certainly didn't expect and anticipate a dog's gratitude and undying love instantly - I expected to have to work at it (and yes I got fucking lucky in what I DID get - although he's a farting sofa-hog).

Or did you expect a wonderful montage of the dog fattening up, getting a nice coat and a walk off into the sunset through woodland? Even my fantastic rescue wouldn't do that - he'd be off the opposite way chasing a squirrel up a tree.

We're pissed off because people have been raking round contacts, finding phone numbers, desperately trying to help what actually sounds like quite a salvageable situation with time and effort (I know of lots of people who've turned around much much worse) - and they're being lied to and having the piss taken out of them. Then the OP comes back on here and spins some more woe and reveals MORE "problems" - and when it's cross-checked... two completely different versions of events emerge. Who are people going to believe? An established real life rescue contact - or someone on the internet who keeps changing their story?