Kate or minimu; q about release cues.

[SlubberdeVelcro]

Am going round in circles in my head atm about how best to do release cues.

What we have here at the moment is a good response to the basic cues of sit, down and stand. If I add in "wait" we have a reasonably good response to that in various different situations (me walking out of the room with food left in front of her, in the park, dogs approaching etc), and then I will release with "OK!" Plus a sort of send away hand signal.

The problem is if I don't add wait after the first cue we get a bottom up and down like a bride's nightie, with me constantly having to give the cue again.

Having rewatched some kikopup videos she says that the cue always includes +wait. So if you ask for a sit you get a continous sit for however long you want and then you release it.

Do I need to rework on sit/down/stand and phase out the wait cue, or should you always do sit-whatever and then add the wait in?

Or does it not really matter? I don't want to keep working on this bit of training if I have to undo it all at some future point.

All my commands mean to carry on doing it until I release.

So if I ask for a sit the dog will continue to sit until I say ok.

I also have a wait but use that for when something else is going to happen quite quickly so a wait for me includes a watch me command.

So if I open the back of my car the dogs will "wait watch me" until released, same with opening the crate or at the beginning of an agility run.

To get a wait added to your commands if they know the command well slightly delay the timing of the click. So the sit becomes before the reward

It is personal preference but I think as you have found out easier if have one command and do not have to keep asking for wait etc.

It will be interesting to hear Kates response to this too

So the sit becomes longer before the reward

Ok thanks minimu, that's great.

So "sit".......pause..........."OK!", and c&t as the dog moves out of position?

Technically, "sit" should mean "sit until released or given another command" but I use "Wait" for, say, the sit before a retrieve or a recall, and "Stay" ONLY for a stay, meaning "I will NOT be calling you to me under any circumstances - wait there until I get back".

Chances are, she'd be perfectly OK if I didn't use "Wait" or "Stay", because she IS trained not to move until released even if I haven't used those commands. Rightly or wrongly, especially with the "Stay" command, I feel like it's just a bit of extra info on what we're about to do. For instance, I will say "Heelwork" or "Recall" or "Retrievies" or "D.C" before an exercise, just to let her know what we're doing. So yeah, I see "extra cues" as just a bit of extra info for her, but I'm pretty sure she'd stay put without them, if that makes any sense at all!

It sounds as if you need to go back to basics, and withold the click, half second by half second, so that you build duration. I think you've inadvertently trained him to think that "Sit" means "Sit for half a second, then get up again"!

So "sit".......pause..........."OK!", and c&t as the dog moves out of position?

I'd be a bit wary of clicking the moving bit. I'd keep the click/treat for the bit where he's sitting/lying still. The release is reward enough on its own, I think. Remember, the click ENDS the behaviour, so what I did was click and then say "OK!!" in a jolly, excited voice AS she moved out of position to get the treat.

....(pressed send too soon)... and therefore, "OK" became a release cue.

I hope it all makes sense.

Yes, makes perfect sense Kate.

I have inadvertently trained her to wait for the wait, so if wait is not forthcoming then, hey I've done the sit so now I can crack on with something else.
[back to the drawing board]

I can see why I should be clicking the extended down but Elsie is using the click as a release cue in itself, the moment she hears it she pops up wanting the treat, and I want OK to be the release from the down rather than the click iyswim.

Can I click and excited OK simultaneously?

And what is D.C?

She SHOULD be seeing the click as a release cue - the click ends the behaviour. Yes, that's how I did it; click and excited "OK!" as I threw the treat. You need to build a release word because you won't always need a clicker - it's only really for teaching new stuff/fine tuning known stuff. Not all the time.

D.C is Distance Control for Obedience - Sit, Stand, Down at a distance in a varying (according to the judge's wishes) order and the BANE OF MY FUCKING LIFE.

Ahem. Sorry.

Do not click the movement that would be teaching the dog that it gets the treat when it moves position.

So good timing required here to start with
Ask for a sit, pause as the dog is still sitting click say ok and release.

Also watch your body language here people tend to hold their breath, put up a hand like a stop sign, leaning forward and this also becomes a command to the dog. Keep your body language as neutral as possible and then up the anti and do odd movements jump up and down, wave etc.

Also as time goes on test your release command, many dogs will release on the first word you say, so build up to saying anything, apples, pears, TV, larry etc and then say ok Huge reward if the dog moves only on the ok or release word.

Do you have a wrong word? eg if the dog makes a mistake (which is great in clicker training as they learn so fast from their mistakes) I tend to say "oh dear" in a very down beat voice the dog realises that was not correct and thinks hard to offer another behaviour.

Don't you do the "DC" yet Slubber - honestly get those shoes and coats and get clicking right now

I've only just started experimenting with a wrong word/No Reward Marker and I'm quite pleasantly surprised how well it works once they've got the idea.

Minimu's first sentence is what I was trying to get at in my post, only I prefer to use more words and make it less clear

Come on what is DC?

I said up there ^^ Minimu!

Do you have stuff you love teaching and other stuff you're not so keen on?

I hate DC and Scent.

My most Favourite Things To Teach are tricks.

I knew I should have run away and joined the circus.

hahahahah at your sweary DC outburst Kate.

minimu you know the more I clicker training the dog the more I'm tempted to try it with the dc, one pocket filled with liver treats and the other with m&ms
[potential for pocket treat confusion catastrophe]

yes I use "too bad" as my wrong word with a terribly melodramatic down beat pitch to my voice. You can almost see the dog go "bugger"

Thank you so much both of you.

Will restart on sits and downs again tomorrow.

Whoops - see it now!!!!!

I agree in that I hate scent for obedience but love tracking for working trials and search and rescue. I must say that I do not love competition obedience as much as other training and activities but do still do it. I had a lab marked down in the stay exercise cos he was wagging his tail so much his body moved but he was the happiest dog there!

I do tend to think of all behaviours as tricks somehow it is more relaxing that way and that is how the dog see them anyway!

Never too late to join the circus

I do tend to think of all behaviours as tricks somehow it is more relaxing that way and that is how the dog see them anyway!

Exactly. That's how I try to approach it now, ever since I realised that I tend to be FAR more impressed when she masters a trick than when she cracks, say, a heelwork turn. The first time she managed "Hide eyes/Be shy" on cue I think the neighbours heard .

I think I'd enjoy tracking/S and R far more than I like scent for obedience.

I was very lucky in our last competition - her "sit stay" started out OK, but when I turned round at the end, her back legs had splayed like a frog (she tends to sit very lazily anyway) and her front legs had slid forward somewhat. I reckon if she'd had to sit for 30 seconds longer it would have turned into a splat rather than a sit. The judge was obviously feeling generous that day