Labradoodle Owners - advice needed please?

[onoffon]

I posted similar questions under a different topic but someone suggested reposting with 'labradoodle' in the title!

Have spent hours reading all the wise MNetters advice about puppies/dogs etc as DH and I have decided to get a dog later this year; but I just have a couple of questions.

We can't get one straight away because we're waiting to move from London out to the countryside (Sussex), but when should we start looking? and how do you find a good breeder?

And should I just wait until we're ready and then look for adverts of recent litters, or should I identify a good breeder now, visit them to see previous litters so then I can get first pick of a later litter?

Can anyone recommend a good breeder?

Thanks

No Midori, they don't have a breed standard, yet. There's actually a lot of debate in the LD community about whether such a standard should be established, and whether it should involve the KC etc.

Of course you can get into a breed that is in its infancy, at one point every dog we see in the show ring was developed by people doing just that, albeit hundreds of years ago. In fact to many that is part of the appeal - the opportunity to create a new bloodline of healthy, well-tempered dogs. I know you won't believe that, but I can't get my breeder off the phone whenever I call because they are SO enthused by what is going on.

Hip, elbow and eye scores are routine for good breeders. I know of one who recently crossed a 0/0 bitch with a 0/1 dog.

I don't see why it's so different to breeding labs - you could decide to breed a 'show' style lab, conform to the type, and produce beautiful, relatively heavy-set dogs. Or you could decide to produce working types, and produce slimmer, intelligent, active dogs. As long as both are responsibly mated for health and temperament, no one would say one is 'better' than the other. They're just different to fulfil different roles, why can't doodles be the same?

As for making money from breeding - that is hardly the preserve of LDs, there are commercial breeders of any popular or working dog type. Some good, some bad. Just like hobby breeders, some good, some bad.

I might start calling my dog Foxajack. He could be the first of his breed

He's worth a fortune my dog. Foxajacks are a very rare breed. I will be allowing people to view him for the small sum of £5 later this afternoon.

I really don't see doodles as a breed and I say that as a doodle owner. I don't give a crap if my dog doesn't meet a particular standard. I do however care deeply about my dog's health which is why I made sure the lady who bred my dog was ethical. Fwiw some years ago I rescued a pedigree bitch who'd been bred to within an inch of her life. She was a money-making machine for the bitch who owned her (a top show breeder). Somebody posted about having a pup of this particular breed on here a few days ago and nobody raised an eyebrow. Whenever doodles are mentioned we owners are given hell. I don't get it.

Oh FFS I'm not criticising Labradoodles!

I like all dogs. I'd rather aa Pitt than a Labradoodle tbh, but then again I'd have a Labradoodle over a Yorkie or Old English any day. They just aren't top of my list, I'm not critical of them.

I'm critical of inherent conditions in dogs, especially those which can and should be avoided and which aren't and of dog breeding and dog breeders. Full stop. Have gone over this one before, ad nauseum no doubt, so won't go there again (and haven't time) but my argument is in AIBU if you'd care to search - it will explain my POV.

Re the Dalmatian site, didn't read that comment, have contact in Dally rescue but have little to do with them as Dallys rarely come up. Yes, I would indeed say the same of their irresponsible claims too.

As I would of any organisatioon which makes such claims about a breed such as X breed "are wonderful with children" because although YOU may be intelligent, may do your homework, may see beyond the generalisation, I and my kind in rescue pick up the pieces and deal with the numpties who believe this stuff and who dump dogs when it goes tits up.

Not you... very often not the breeders... me and rescue.

joni, trust me, when people mention buying pups I grow extra eyebrows, just so I can raise them. :o

That's why I try not to stray onto the puppy threads unless the pup concerned IS a rescue, like Dooins or unless I am recommending that the OP rescues instead.

If doodle breeders had a goal in mind and were specifically trying to breed for a reason and type (eg, working their animals, competing them and trying to breed specific working animals) then I wouldn't have such a problem with it. The only slight problem if that out an dotu working dogs do not always make the very good all round pets that they seem to be 'marketing' labradoodles as. (think Border Collies, wonderful dogs, great at what they do, but not really suitable as your average pet dog)

Whether the LD community want to involve the KC may not be the issue so much as do the KC accept Labradoodles as a breed at any point? Northern Inuit breeders have been trying to get the KC to accept their 'breed' for years, with much debate and eventually a split within the 'breed' as poor record keeping early on has meant the KC are very nlikely to ever give the NI breed status. However, at least the NI breeders have their own club and their own breed shows.

Yes, there are different typs of labs. However, each type has consistency within that type, there doesn't appear to be much consictncy in type within Labradoodles and in fact, why would there be seeing as breeders aren't breeding to type?

Sorry Val, I should have qualified that as 'criticise Labradoodle breeders & owners', I know you'd never criticise a dog even if it was a food-stealing fur-shedding in-bred designer-fad devil hound incarnate

I do know your position on the dog breeding business, and I actually posted before to say thank you to opening my eyes to the world of independent rescue. Like many on here, I suspect, I was scared off initially by the widespread impression that I wouldn't be able to get a rescue dog while TTCing, and have since been educated on here that that is incorrect. I definitely intend to endeavour to get a rescue for No.2, and a large part of that is down to you.

But given that it happens, personally I'd like to see the GOOD that people are doing in the labradoodle breed/crossbreed - whatever you want to call it - recognised a little more so that it can be built on and the breed improved, rather than the whole lot tarred with the same sorry 'money grabbing, irresponsible' brush.

I think you've just described my white, long haired German Shepherd there, Merkin. :o

midori I'm not saying all LD breeders are or should be producing working animals, that was just an example of one I know who is not 'following the money', but came at it from another perspective. Some use more conventional 'pet' lab lines, some are working very hard on the coat/allergy side of breeding, some breed miniatures. You're right there's absolutely no standard.

I don't know how long ago the show and working lab types diverged, but obviously it's rather more that 25 years, which is when the LD 'breeding' began. Among responsible breeders there is a real awareness of all the issues you mention, but right now the dogs are just so young as a type I think it will be many years before we see any kind of formalisation.

Check out the alaeu, the breeders of Australian Labradoodles' club I suppose, records are kept here of health tests and litters. The uk Labradoodles I don't think have such s club but good breeders will score hips and elbows (the Labradoodle has a BMS of 13, this has come down from 14 last year, hopefully as a result of breeders being careful about the dogs they breed from), eyes tested yearly, many DNA test for PRA and other conditions too. Many breeders have donated pups to Canine Partners and they have gone on to do well. Some owners with disabilities are training their own dogs to be assistance dogs with the help of similar charities/groups. The Labradoodle community do have shows up and down the country and many owners enter Scrufts with their dogs. I do understand that there are many rogue breeders (but the same is true in the Pedigree world) but it saddens me when people tar all Labradoodle breeders with the same brush.

Why oh why though would anyone want to consciously mix the breed of a lab and poodle. It is totally beyond me. Why would anyone want to own the mix knowing the health risks and the behavioural issues that can so easily arise.

Don't care that I am upsetting anyone - feeling bolshy and knackered after spending 2 hours this morning training behavioural issues with a labradoodle. sixth one this week.

I reckon of all the breeds I have referred to me labradoodle are pretty high on the list, way more than any rescue dog. Closely followed by collies!

Labradoodles keeping you in a job then!

Seriously though behaviour issues are a problem but it does raise plenty of issues as to why you have so many of them, do you live in a Labradoodle blackspot? Are Labradoodle owners more conscientious or have more available funds and more likely to consult a trainer (I'm assuming here you are a private trainer, apologies if I'm wrong)? Are the dogs in question from unscrupulous breeders using dogs that have known problems and shouldn't be bred from?

Herebefore I hadn't thought of it that way maybe that makes me as bad as some of the dodgy breeders .

I get referrals from vets and trainers all over the country so I do not think I am in a labradoodle hotspot.

However there is no doubt that they are a popular breed at the moment and many first time dog owners are definitely attracted to them.

They are also large bouncy sociable energetic dogs and some owners just do not realise the amount of training and exercise they require.

A few years ago the breed I saw most was chocolate labs again for similar reasons.

However there is no doubt that labradoodles are enthusiastic happy dogs but do need a lot of attention and stimulation or will go self employed with disastrous consequences if not careful. I would still question what is wrong with a lab or a poodle where the instinctive behaviour of the dogs can be harnessed really easily.

I don't think that makes you as bad as the dodgy breeders at all, you're just saying what you see. You're right though they are popular with first time dog owners and I was thinking further and wondered whether some of the problem is unscrupulous breeders not really caring where their pups go, a good breeder would vet their potential owners and not be afraid to turn unsuitable people away.

As I've said already I love my Doodles but I'm also grateful that I have made good choices as far as breeders go. Not saying my dogs and their behavious are perfect but they are pretty close!

I love the doodles too you can't help it to be honest. I just wish that it wasn't the dogs that suffer for some humans novelty value.

minimu, I'm interested, what would you say are the behavioural issues of a doodle, compared to a lab or poodle? In other words, what makes it likely you'll end up with a 'problem dog' (I know you can't generalise, and I know it's the owners' fault etc etc, but just to speak in broad terms...) with a cross rather than one of the pure breeds?

Also how to I stop my insanely sociable doodle from lunging at every person or dog he sees because he wants to play...? Treats and toys are just not an interesting enough distractiion!

Creator of the Labradoodle regrets it

30andMerkiin Both labs and poodles are fantastic dogs. The problem is the fashion image that they have as doodles. They are large, high energy dogs, that love and need to be worked and that are intelligent the poodle in particular is a very bright fast thinking dog. When you put that together in the hands of a novice you have problems.

Doodles in the correct hands will not have major issues however their exuberance and love of life and people and inability at times to listen to training as their instinctive behaviour kicks in can cause issues.

Also doodles need to be kept busy but they can be quite hard to train as they are instinctive driven but the instinctive behaviour is not as clear as a lab or poodle.

Peoples see them first as an allergy free dog (which as all of you know is rubbish) and then they love the looks (at the moment how long will that stay in fashion?).

Poodles need to work labs need to be out working their instinct gundog work and training but put the combination together and you have a dog that must be trained worked and especially not become the top gear dog!

The issue you have with your sociable doodle is very very common. Doodles can get into a lot of trouble by not recognising other dogs body language and charging in with a big smile on their faces and then being surprised when they are growled at. Over time the doodle can become fear aggressive because of this.

You need to work on upping his attention to you in all situations - yep really really hard but that is the only way you will get your doodle to leave other people dogs alone.

It takes hours and hours of time but can be done and really should be done. I would hand feed him, all his fun should come from you. What toys does he like? What food does he like? Have a special word which signifies fun time and then gradually increase his distraction threshold.

You have probably gathered that I feel very strongly that dogs should be given more than the two walks a day that is seen as acceptable. Doodles definitely are a dog that require more stimulation than this and when they do not get it the dogs are not living their life to the full.

Laska Great article, have read a similar one before. Just shows how fickle people are. Market the puppy as a cross breed - no-one wants it, market it with a cute (?) name, instant attraction.

Minimu1 I hadn't realised that trainers were seeing increased numbers of LD problem dogs. I wonder if it is to do with the crossing of those two particular breeds, or because they tend to appeal to inexperienced dog owners who are not sure how to train, or just because of the sheer numbers being breed at the moment. At our local park, there are a few LD's who I regularly see. Apparently they all come from the same breeder, and 3 of them are from the same litter. All look very different, and all moult, much to the (stated) disappointment of the owners. Each and every one of the LD owners has asked if my Standard Poodle is a LD.

minimu, that's so interesting what you say about doodles being unable to read other dog's body language, it's exactly our experience. I wonder why that is, for dogs that seem otherwise to be so intelligent and able to read human body language?

Re the other issues specific to my dog, I'm PMing you as I know you're a professional trainer and want to give you the option of telling me to naff off! But I really appreciate everything you've advised so far (... inexperienced Labradoodle owner does not necessarily equal irresponsible )

Minimu "Doodles can get into a lot of trouble by not recognising other dogs body language and charging in with a big smile on their faces and then being surprised when they are growled at. Over time the doodle can become fear aggressive because of this"

This almost describes my 18 month old Doodle, apart from this we dont seem to have had any other problems. I say almost, whilst walking a few weeks ago a Rottweiler went for her, she was on her lead so hadnt even had the opportunity to bound over and smile, the owner was miles away and this dog just grabbed her by the side of her neck, it was awful.

She is now quite nervous of other dogs, she will sniff them but then start to bark. I have spoken to a trainer but she wasnt very helpful, would it be ok if I PM you? I would really appreciate some help

This is probably utter rubbish but I will add it anyway just in case it isn't ! I have read that with the darker colour ones, their shaggy eyebrows can obscure their eyes and make their facial express hard for other dogs to read, which can result in some occasionally having a go.

Having read this I do trim Plog's eyebrows just in case. We've been lucky with her so far (she's coming up for 20 months ) and although she does bound over very enthusiastically, she does seem to know when to back off and hasn't had anyone growl at her since she was a fair bit smaller. She seems to get on well with dogs who don't generally get on well with other dogs and we've had two owners saying if we ever want to rehome her to let them know as a result. Yet still DH persists in bringing her home

Loving the name Plog!

"I'd also say that given the increase in popularity in Labradoodles it isn't necessary for the dogs to be breed to close relatives, unlike lots of pedigrees I could list."

sigh<

if only you knew how these dogs were produced. No pedigree = no guarantee of parentage.

= father/daughter brother/sister mating?

possibly.

frankly as discussed at length on the 'aibu to want to buy from a reliable breeder' as thse dogs aren't shown or worked in formal competition, there isnt a good enough reason to breed them - the people that have chosen to breed this dog are in it for money.

The aim of trying to breed a dog with labrador-like soppy temperament and poodle-stlyle non-shedding coat is a failed one - all breeders have done to achieve this is breed back to poodle resulting in dogs that are 95% a single breed - ie poodles in all but name!

The dogs themselves of course lovely (like the huge majority of dogkind)- its just the breeders that are either misguided or unscrupulous.

Another downside is some are as tall as poodles with the same propensity to put on weight as labs, and the wish to jump up and stand against you.

If you want a doodle - Plenty in rescue looking for good homes!

also..

"I wonder what the vets' opinions are? Is it me or are there a troublingly high number of very young LD coming into surgeries with hip dysplasia? Are you seeing a noticable number of the other inherited diseases in young LD?"

The problem is that poodles do not usually have hip or elbow problems for a reason - it is hard to get a poodle to gain weight. Hip scores are good usually - on a skeleton designed with a slim dog in mind. Many owners battle to get their dog to be more than skin and bones. Crossbreed them with a dog with a propensity both for weight gain, and its own set of elbow/hip problems - and people are suprised with a high incidence of HD?

I'm not.