Labradoodle Owners - advice needed please?

[onoffon]

I posted similar questions under a different topic but someone suggested reposting with 'labradoodle' in the title!

Have spent hours reading all the wise MNetters advice about puppies/dogs etc as DH and I have decided to get a dog later this year; but I just have a couple of questions.

We can't get one straight away because we're waiting to move from London out to the countryside (Sussex), but when should we start looking? and how do you find a good breeder?

And should I just wait until we're ready and then look for adverts of recent litters, or should I identify a good breeder now, visit them to see previous litters so then I can get first pick of a later litter?

Can anyone recommend a good breeder?

Thanks

If you want an intelligent, working dog which is good with children and doesn't shed.....

get a poodle

all those labradoodles that you describe saying they are nuts, heavy, greedy and thick have an overdose of labrador.

a purebred standard poodle is a kind, intelligent, graceful dog. I have two and you can leave a leg of lamb on the kitchen table in snout distance and they wouldn't dream of taking it. You can put them in a room of 15 screeching toddlers and they will raise their eyes heavenward and take what is thrown at them. they don't shed a hair.

labradoodles are mongrels and none the worse for that but you need to know what you are getting. and anyone who "breed" them is doing it for the money and the fun but lets not pretend there is any higher reason! Hardly for the good of the breed, as it isn't a breed and never will be as the geneticist above points out!

er less of the lab slagging thankyouverymuch freshmint.

My lab is neither nuts, heavy nor thick. She IS greedy but because of her superb biddable temperament and colossal intellect she has a near perfect 'leave it' command and she's not even one yet.

i have put her in a aircraft hanger filled with bare chested manic 4 years olds high on frootshoots and sausagerolls who taunted her with tennis balls made of roast chicken and she made the 'whatever' sign with her opposable thumbs.

last point is a bit made up

there is a tinsy bit of shedding though

I don't say that all labs are heavy and thick but you must admit that a lot of them are.

a good lab is a great thing (as yours evidently is) but a bad lab is a stupid greedy fat farting machine

whereas a bad poodle is merely a bit highly strung

I am not now or never have been a lab owner because I always believed they were the canine equivalent of "Tim Nice-But-Dim". I recently met a few working type labs in puppy classes and out on walks and am now munching on humble pie. I can honestly say that these dogs are ANYTHING but dim!

goodness me freshmint

there's me tyring to do a diffusion post with a spot of sillyness and you come back with heavy, thick, stupid, greedy, fat and farting machine.

are you tying to get the lab owners on here riled up because you are doing a good job of it with me.

A bad poodle isn't 'Evil Personified', it just isn't trained. They are highly intelligent, working dogs. They need mental stimulation and exercise. Most dogs do.

I personally think that a bad dog is a very rare thing, whereas a bad owner is regretably common.

Freshmint - our standard won't even look at us if we are eating, unlike my sister-in-laws lab who smarms his way around enyone eating until they give up and share!

anyone, even

Labs are hardly stupid!! Reason why they are used as guide dogs!? Yes all dogs can be bad - because they are not trained and have crap owners!
yes labradoodles are mongrols BUT they are bloody cute! Not all labradoodle owners want a poodle as otherwise we would have bought a poodle!

I have Labradoodles and love the very bones of the blighters! Doodle Post is a good site to visit for info about responsible breeders, the Labradoodle Association as already mentioned and Doodle Times (the forum connected with rescue) would be good places to look for more info).

Non TRULY reputable breeder would sell one of these Labroddle etc crosses

If you can't understand why not - just don't.

For fuck's sake!

Charming!

That's a ridiculous statement Bella. It's also highly offensive and fucking libellous. You can't go around saying breeders are not reputable simply because of what type of dog they choose to breed

Ok, so good breeders breed because they want to improve the breed. Healthwise, temperament wise, comformationally and general looks aswell. They usually only breed when they either want a puppy to keep or some other good reason like a stud dog visiting from abroad and so limited opportunity to use. They don't make any money because they spend hundreds of pounds every month on showing their dogs, which is their hobby. They will only breed from the best examples of the breed, best in terms of all the factors mentioned above and those dogs being deemed 'best' because they have been judged by independant parties to be good examples of the breed.

Do any labradoodle breeders really do the above? I assume not, so why are they breeding?

I'm not a breeder. I don't know what motivates them. I also don't get the obsession with obtaining the perfect example of a particular breed. As far as I can see it isn't good for individual dogs to be bred without a face (pugs) or with back legs so weak they can barely stand (GSD).
I do however understand the attraction of a lovely type of dog such as the doodle (because I have one) and I can understand why somebody would want to produce such lovely animals.

Well obviously labradoodle breeders don't show, because they're not a KC breed, but in my opinion that's no bad thing.

I certainly don't think that breeding the best 'show' standard dog is necessarily the same as improving the breed, and there are plenty of people objecting to current breed standards/the Crufts world etc

But I do know of plenty of doodle breeders who got into the breed through other routes - producing working gundogs, assistance dogs etc. Some make money, some don't. I was speaking to someone in the pedigree Old English Sheepdog world the other day, and believe me THEY make money from their breeding. And yes, the dogs went through a fashionable phase some years ago thanks to TV advertising campaigns, but no-one would say ALL Old English Sheepdog breeders are evil irresponsible.

I definitely know of many doodle breeders who passionately want to improve the breed & I think it's a massive sweeping generalisation to say that just because they're breeding doodles that can't be true. Any more than to say ALL staffy breeders just want to produce aggressive dogs, or all pug breeders are jumping on the celebrity bandwagon, or all pekenise breeders are immoral for breeding dogs with breeding problems.

breathing, even

Agreed Bella.

I've just been reading of someone whose six month old LD pup has been diagnosed with a severe case of hip dysplasia and it's occurred to me that there seem to be a remarkably high number of such cases. This could be an indication of interbreeding from a limited stock bearing in mind that this is one of the conditions which are prevelant in both the Labrador and the Poodle. Genetic disease was something I had to take on board with my 2 Sheps, having lost my first to degenerative myeleopathy but wrt Labradoodles, they come with too long a list of inherent conditions which are common to both breeds for my comfort.

I wonder what the vets' opinions are? Is it me or are there a troublingly high number of very young LD coming into surgeries with hip dysplasia? Are you seeing a noticable number of the other inherited diseases in young LD?

If I'm correct nothing much will be done, sadly. Those who breed from their LD just to make a few pounds/so the kids can see pups being born/whatever won't give a damn or a penny to have their dogs tested and many of the experienced F1 breeders will only be selective to a point. An article I was reading on degenerative myeleopathy (which, incidentally, Standard Poodles are high on the risk list for), says it all. The article announces that there is now a DNA test for this incurable disease and acknowledges what a devastating effect it has on dogs and the heartache it causes owners to have to have their dog PTS because of it rather than see him die slowly and painfully, yet does it advise not breeding from a high risk dog? Does it feck! It's all about so called "good" breeders making decisions in balancing the good points and the faults, as it always has been. In anotherwords, some will continue to breed certain dogs knowing there's a higher than average chance that the resulting pups could die as my Shane did when he got to the stage of being unable to stand in the morning to tell me he needed to go out for a wee... in my arms whilst I wept because I had to concede to the bastard trail of tears disease and ask my vet to give him peace. And that's if they're lucky.

My peace was gone, ripped from me that day. I don't want any other owner to go through that if it can possibly be avoided.

Something else which troubles me is this, from the Labradoodle Trust's website:

"Labradoodles are wonderful with children and people who have special needs. They are non-aggressive, highly intelligent dogs that are easy to train... "

FGS! Just as there is no such thing as a bad breed there is no such thing as a perfect one either. They all have their rogue members.

It's bloody irresponsible of an organisation claiming to be the breed experts to make such black-and-white claims and causes no end of heartache. This might be the reason why some of those like the 5 month old allegedly "untrainable" LD who I met in rescue are being given up on - it'll be the dog's fault, no-one else's, because Labradoodle Trust said they were easy to train, the owners will tell you. This will most likely be followed by warnings to others not to take on a rescue dog because if you can't trust Labradoodle welfare, you can't trust any rescue. I am less than impressed by any rescue organisation which promotes breeding too and those claims, whilst undoubtedly accurate in the majority of cases, don't fill me with respect or faith in those involved with the breeding of LDs.

There's a long, long way to go before I'll be convinced of either the wisdom of Labradoodles ever having been bred or of the wisdom in owning one.

I have only ever met 1 labradoodle and it's a nutter. A lovely nutter, but a nutter none the less. It regularly takes it's owner for a walk through the park. It loves dragging her into the swamp and dragging her to meet children and other dogs. The amount of mud it coats itself in I don't imagine that it is the 'clean, low maintenance' dog she was after

A dog is a dog. They all need training. They can all be 'good' or 'bad'. No matter what the breed.

Very reading about all the health problems. Poor dogs.

joni - wrt GSD being bred with back legs so week they can barely stand - GSD suffer from hip dysplasia and arthiritis but generally less so than do Labradors.

The one disease which will cause what you have described is degenerative myeleopathy. It affects Sheps more than any other breed and is incurable.

It is only very recently that the DNA test for it became available and to the best of my knowledge this is still in it's infancy, available only in the USA and still undergoing further testing. It will be decades, centuries even, before DM is not seen IF this test is used and IF dogs which are high risk are not bred from and IF this is followed by ALL breeders.

And of course, that will happen.

Bad breeding and bad breeders have a hell of a lot to answer for - adding to them is no defence and defending those which add to the problem doesn't work either.

Now, excuse me, whilst all those reputable breeders are eliminating crippling and terminal illness I'm off to watch the pigs fly outside.

A lot of labradoodle breeders have previously bred labradors. That was the 'history' of the lady who bred our doodle. She was very experienced in respect of the hip dysplasia issue.

There are several hundred breeds registered with the KC, only a very small handful of them are bred to extremes which are to the detriment of the animals health, most are not. And yes, breeding to 'show standard' is improving the breed in most cases as it involves all that the breed encompasses and of course, we want Golden Retrievers that look like Goldens, we want Labradors that look like labs, in other words, we want consitency within the breeds. Not just in looks, but also in every other aspect and we want to improve on that, to get lower hip and elbow scores, to try and eventually rid breeds of conditions such as L2-HGA in Staffies etc.

How can you get 'into a breed' that isn't a breed? Is there a set standard for doodles, what they should look like? Are breeders breeding for type? Are they only breeding from dogs with below average hip scores, are they even elbow scoring? If not, how can they be improving the breed and if they are breeding for type they must be inbreeding or at least line breeding, which is what some people object to so much.

I appreciate I have very high standards when it come to what constitutes an ethical breeder, but IMO, no-one should make money from breeding dogs, it is unethical and honestly, if you are making money, something is going wrong, because how is it possible to make money on breeding one litter every few years or less? (which IMO is the ideal)

I am not saying all doodle breeders are the work of the devil, I appreciate some have a lot more ethics than others, but I will never agree with breeding dogs to make money and I really can't see why else people are breeding them.

Ok Val, as you say say there is no such thing as a breed generalisation, so why is everyone so happy to do just that when it comes to ciriticising doodles?

What that actually Trust page says is: "They are non-aggressive, highly intelligent dogs that are easy to train, but need plenty of mental and physical stimulation

"They want nothing more than to please their people, but if left on their own for long periods these intelligent dogs tend to find their own entertainment.

Promoting breeding? They go on...

"Labradoodles have had an astronomical rise in popularity, in some ways the worst thing that can happen to a breed."

.. and on
"Some new breeders who prefer to breed the F1?s (Labrador to Poodle) are entering the breeding arena with integrity. These breeders are health testing their breeding stock and are taking care to breed only the best examples of Lab and Poodle, with good temperament and sound healthy lines, but unfortunately there are far too many others who are not as conscientious..."

The Dalmation Rescue trust you linked to yesterday says: "Dalmatians are wonderful family dogs, and are great in multi-pet households". Unless no Dalmatian in the history of the world has ever had a problem with other dogs, are this trust equally irresponsible for making such a claim?

The Labradoodle Trust does great things in educating people about the allergy claims of unscrupulous breeders, and advice for inexperienced owners. Yes, they also want to promote the good points of their breed, but so does pretty much everyone who is passionate about one type of dog.

Just because it's a breed that some people don't 'get' does not make it acceptable to continue the sweeping generalisations.

Labradoodles are not a breed they are crossbreeds.