The Trouble with Working Women BBC2 9.00 p.m Monday - anyone watching ?

[EvenBetaDad]

Anyone watching this and what do you think?

fox in my old job it was normal for women to go back full time when the children were very small - 6 months off was quite usual.

I think it depends on industry.

Plus, unless you are in a public sector job with a fixed pay structure, like my DH, how can you actually be sure that you are being paid equitably.

The other problem with saying you wouldn't let it go without a fight is that in many companies it's against the rules to discuss pay. In my company when i found out I was being paid less, and raised it, I was told to that I was on very thin ice as you can be sacked for discussing pay. And of course the fact I was pg didn't help either

If they change the law so that employers can't say it can't be discussed that would be a start...

I don't think there's a law that says you can't discuss pay? You can certainly bring it up with your manager. I'm not saying pay inequality doesn't exist, because I'm sure it does. But it's plain discrimination when you look at man vs woman with same history so you could or would have a case against them.

I didn't catch the whole programme last night but did see the bit about the machinisits at Ford who caused a strike and eventually ended up getting fair pay and in the end (though I think it was several years later), equal pay and I thought, good on them! That's what you need ideally - a fight!

And I've always had access to that information which is why I know!

Not sure why we should have to 'fight' for what should be ours by law. Discrimination legislation has been in place 40 years now and little has changed.

well if more people made a fuss about it, perhaps more employers would think about it

I know here in Belgium, both parents are entitled to take a period of leave (in addition to standard maternity/partenity leave) within the first 6 years of a child's life (believe this is being extended to 12). This can be taken in one chunk - 3 months DT, 6 months PT or over 18 months at 4/5s. Pretty much all the women take this and I know several male colleagues who have too. The request can be delayed (very slightly to meet business needs) but NOT refused.

I am the only woman in my department with young/school age children who works FT as opposed to 4/5. There is a very common request to move to this on a permanent contract. I have never seen people treated less equally for doing this.

Mind you 4/5 is also a common working pattern for the over 55s here. Again, it is a legal right. You get extra time to build/pursue interests in the run up to retirement, opening up funds and hours for the next generation.

Mind you there is a full infrastructure to support women who want to work here so opportunities are greater. It can work it just needs the buy in / investment.

fox many people have it stipulated in their work contract that they may not discuss their pay with anyone, and that it is a disciplanary matter. So when you sign your contract you agree to it. Obviously you could argue it, but then they would just say you couldn't have the job if you were unable to agree to their terms and conditions.

And how do you bring it up with your manager?

"Hello am I being paid the same as the men"

"I'm not allowed to discuss that. And nor are you, you could be fired"

Or possibly "yes of course you are" (lie, as you're never likely to find out.

In my old work we had access to payroll details from companies all over the country of employers and industries. There was a noticable pattern of the managers directors etc all being men, and the men being routinely paid more at all but entry level. I wasn't looking for it, just when you're looking at info like that all day every day you notice. Some of the discrepancies were astounding.

porto is that parental leave paid?

I'm not saying there aren't differences big bella. But I'm saying, in your case, you could have made a legal case being pregnant and being discriminated against. I'm not saying you should have done but you could have done. And in general, it seems women choose not to take on those cases.

No, it is not. There is a small subsidy from the Mutelle, kind of like SMP. I do know that because of the higher tax rates here (and closer bands) it can mean that your pay would not necessarily drop proportionately - ie working 20% less would not mean 20% less pay. I have been enquiring at HR about what the REAL difference would be for me, but haven't had a reply yet.

Another point about equal pay here. Pay scales are agreed with the main unions. Your pay scale is based on your job, your educational qualifications and your experience. Sex discrimination should not exist. (I don't know for sure that it doesn't though....)

fox that's what I'm told.

But you're right in reality not many women can afford to take on massive firms. i certainly couldn't. And it's not really what you feel like doing when pg.

I was told I would have a case for sex discrimination and constructive dismissal.

But it's a certain type of personality that pursues people through the courts for stuff like this, and not a personality that I have. And of course the people who do have personalities like that are usually not treated unfairly in the first place.

It's a viscious circle. Which is why we need the legislation. If the employers won't put their houses in order voluntarily, they must have their hands forced.

Porto there is a legal entitlement here to parental leave but it is unpaid, and as far as i can see rarely taken.

I take two weeks parental leave a year and I am the only one who takes it. It has to be taken a week at a time so I end up taking it for holidays and having a reduction in pay just when I need the extra money.

I take parental leave to leave my annual holiday entitlement to cover the myriad of attendances of things at school (sports day, parents evening - afternoon, concerts) that if I wasn't a single parent I could share attendances with my other half. I also use my annual holiday to cover days off when ds is sick or when there is no holiday club.

Should add that in my dept I am the only female with young children. All my male colleagues with children have SAHWs.

Mollie, it sounds like your employer is particularly inflexible . What industry are you in? I have to say that I went back to work when dd was 5 month's old. She is now 5. I have had 2 employers in that time, and both of them have given me the flexibility to work round stuff like that.

It sounds like I am really lucky. When she has been sick, I have worked from home. They have given me a bit of grief about it. My argument has always been " I have this urgent stuff to do - if i have to take a day's holiday I will NOT be doing it. If I can work from home I will work round things and get it done. So your choice."

Strangely enough......

3 weeks a go i asked for flexible working as i have massive caring responsibilities. 1 week ago i was dismissed. it is all true, they are bastards....

overthemill I am so sorry to hear that.

I hope that you find something more suitable - there are good employers out there I promise.

Chin up you're better off without arseholes like that.

thanks! the irony is i used to advise employers about flexible working/business case somewhere else. Never mind, something better will come up... i hope

Course it will. And you will wil much better off without having to work with twats like that. It really does grind you down.

If you used to advise employers re flex working you maybe have some contacts at flexible employers?

sprog that was interesting - and that maths was seen as equal/female in the co-ed school gave me hope.

Although it seemed to be because in that school the maths teacher was female.

So maybe role models are key as well - something they always bang on about but I've never given much thought to...