The Trouble with Working Women BBC2 9.00 p.m Monday - anyone watching ?

[EvenBetaDad]

Anyone watching this and what do you think?

Sophie is not your typical "working mother" is she? He was an idiot, should go back to the One Show. Nothing new, pretty depressing. All those poor children in daycare who are going to turn into agressive thugs - what was that old prof talking about?!! As for the lecturer, what was her husband doing to help (the one insistent on her working full time?) Very little by the looks of it! I discussed flexible working with my employer and we could not come to an agreement over hours so I had to resign - back to the drawing board as I cannot continue my career in the area where I live - too specialised

Am about to watch on IPlayer but want to go straight to the bit with the lecturer - can any kind person who has watched this tell me whereabouts in the prog it comes?
Thanks

Ah, found it.
I think her dh ought to be able to find his own underpants fgs.

agree with thread, programme was too simplistic and we should see it as a parents' issue not just about mothers.

BUMPITY BUMP.

Second episode on in a few minutes BBC 2 at 9.00 p.m .

Hopefully with a few more answers than questions tonight.

I don't normally watch these and won't watch it all as tired (from sodding work!) and need to go to bed early.

But one thing I will say....I think A LOT of women aren't as forceful as men when it comes to salaries. If I think how many men come in and demand pay rises and talk themselves up and then think how many women come in and are grateful they are getting any payrise and aren't pushy about that sort of thing at all and don't big themselves in any way, it is incredible. But I think employers need to have some responsibility for ensuring pay is equal but do think women still have quite a bit to learn about negotiating pay and bigging themselves up iyswim (certainly in my line of work!).

Not sure I can take more rubbish on this tonight!

daftpunk I could have taken them to an ET but it is the sort of business where everyone knows everyone else and I didn't fancy a career change and no income whilst I did it.

Mother in law took her council to employment tribunal to get equal pay compared to bin men in her area - she was a care worker.

She and all the other women won.

What a stupid comment - "at least women work in the city now, even though they earn less" (or words to that affect). Presenters are poor, treating it as some sort of joke, the subject needs more heavyweight ones...

'this house husband thing'?? What planet is Justin on?

Well done to your MIL EBD.

'women have richer lives despite being paid less'. What a dysmal conclusion.

I imagine Sophie earns more than Justin.

Just caught the last minute of it and I thought the phrase 'women have richer lives despite being paid less' was fucking patronizing.

dismal, even.

I have to say I've taped this and watched the other side - programme about where convenience food comes from. Now that WAS depressing!

dittany - you are right. No proof needed. I have seen it first hand.

Otherwise I agree with others. A dismal programme. No real alternative solutions presented. For example, it would have been good to see what happens in Scandinavian countries as a contrast.

Good to see the man looking after his DD and his wife out working though.

Everytime I come to terms with working full time but being paid part time (as contracted) money a programme like this comes along. What can we do to stop being penalized for having children? I have a phd and years of experience as a scientist but my pay really suffered due to my decision to have children. I would never change my decision. But feel f"@ked off for my company getting me on the cheap.
I think I will just take a peak at angelic sleeping DD1 up remind me why it's all worth while

Haven't read the thread but I thought it was a pretty good overview of the issues. What the naysayers are forgetting is that these things just are not discussed on telly at all.

And despite the saccharine summaries, the reality is as they reflect it: 50 per cent of women's lower achievements is down to having children, the other is down to basic gender discrimination.

Good that a prime time slot engaged on these issues.

i got the feeling most of it is down to education

sazzer interesting to read about how and why your career stalled - exactly the same happened to me, I could have written your post

Agree with all others who have said that the solution would be seeing it as a parental issue rather than a womens issue.

The genders don't all behave the same as each other - gender stereotypes may apply for the majority (and I even wonder about that) but are no good for the rest.

Lots of women are highly motivated about their careers and really enjoy working. Lots of men really enjoy being at home with children and would love to be able to do more.

Unfortunately at the moment, although this can be done, it goes against the norm, and while the gender pay gap is there it usually doesn't make financial sense to do it this way round even if it's what would make both parties happier.

I am about to go on mat leave and have been told there is a great opportunity waiting when I get back - to learn a new non-specialised skill which would be highly transferrable. DH and I have discussed both working part time to make it work. Unfortunately his employer would almost certainly not agree to that. Which really is a shame - as he would kill for less work and more time with DC - and I think is great for DC to have both parents being main carers - but just doesn't fit with how society works...

The final thing is about pay. I was a typical person who found out I was being paid much less than the men, despite being demonstrably better at the job, with more experience etc. I agree with the person earlier and the program that the reason for this is partly that women don't ask. But sorry that's not good enough. People should be paid according to their worth and experience etc, not to do with what sort of personality they have. The whole idea that someone who is shit but shouty gets paid more than someone who is excellent but quiet is just such a load of old shite. Agree with earlier poster who said that employers should be grown up enough to look at their pay and ensure that things are being done in a reasonable manner. Only result of current way of doing it is that eventually the women find out, get fucked off and leave. Taking all their skills with them. Not sure how that it good for business.

Was talking at length to DW about this again last night.

We mentally went through every one of or female friends and family members and DW said she could not think of a single one who had not either been in some way unfairly treated on pay, pushed out after taking maternity leave, or had to agree to take a lower grade job in return for flexible or part time work. All of them feel bitter about it.

That is a shockingly sad state of affairs.

BigBellas - "DH and I have discussed both working part time to make it work. Unfortunately his employer would almost certainly not agree to that. Which really is a shame - as he would kill for less work and more time with DC - and I think is great for DC to have both parents being main carers - but just doesn't fit with how society works..."

Been in exactly that situation myself - what is wrong with employers?! I thought about flexible working 10 years ago just before DS1 was born and talked to a neutral career adviser. I asked what he thought about developing my career while working flexibly. He just said "that just sounds like a crock of s£!*e". I was genuinely shocked at his response.

When I asked about part-time working 5 years ago so I could help DW with DS1 and DS2 who were very young at the time, one reasonably experienced male colleague said: "what the hell do you want to do that for, can't your wife look after the kids?"

On both occassions, it felt like I had inadvertently commited some kind of mortal sin against manhood. I got the message loud and clear that if I did not work in the traditional full time male role I would not be taken seriously and could say goodbye to my career - which I eventually did.

Definitley we need society to look at 'parenting rights' and different 'employment models'. I was very very lucky to be able to go down an alternative route to a solution but not everyone can do that.

Agree that it seems peverse to shoe-horn people into roles according to gender, when so many are clearly unsuited/unhappy in the role society has for them.

I think that even despite career setbacks and gender pay issues my potential earnings are higher than DHs - and i like working I find it satisfying. And i honestly think that he gets more out of being with DD at this age (toddler) than I do. He seems to have more energy for it than me. I get bored

Why the hell can't we play to our strengths, without being disqulaified for it financially etc.

I've never been unfairly treated paywise but I'd never let my employer do such a thing without a fight tbh and I've always worked for employers who value women in the workplace (I believe).

However, I have always worked full time, as I prefer it tbh (found any part time options were never truly part time and ended up doing a full time job in part time hours). I also think I get more leeway with time off for things like school etc. because I am working full time.

Tbh, I look around the workplace and I still see very few people who have working spouses (once they have kids). There's no-one in my workplace (where both parents work full time) and I cannot think of any other people I know in that situation other than people on mumsnet. It just doesn't happen that often any more.

foxinsocks - "I've never been unfairly treated paywise".

I genuinely hope that is true in your case, but the problem is that women can never really be sure they are being paid fairly if they cannot have free access to the data to check what their male colleagues are being paid.

The situation is worst where 'discretionary' bonus make up a high percentage of the pay.