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Original poster

New Brat Camp Tonight

162 replies

happymerryberries · 01/02/2005 16:44

I know this is the sort of TV I hate myself for watching, but I know I will be there at 9 tonight on C4.

One of the brats is a girl who announced to her mother's coffee circle that she had just had sex in a telephone box! OMG!!!!

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Original poster
happymerryberries · 02/02/2005 19:59

But if we do fail by whatever means these kids face a far worse option than brat camp....death or prison. In the end their choice of behaviour determines their outcome. A great shame they had to get into this state.

Just out of interest (and it is honest interest not point scoring) what would you do with one of these kids if they refused councelling etc at home? How far can you allow freedom of choice when a, the choice if often utterly distructive and b the person making the choice is a minor. My son (5) is refusing is preventative inhaler. Do I let him? Or do I use force and coersion in the greater good of preseving his lung function? and I don't think the comparison between these kids and a toddler is out of line!

Realise you are not condoing thir behaviour btw.

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Joolstoo · 02/02/2005 20:01

Fennel - from what I see and hear their parents have been the 'civilised' route - here is the result!

Fennel · 02/02/2005 20:09

HMB - on comparisons between teenagers and toddlers (which could be another long debate) I'm pretty firm with my (ex)toddlers (now age 3 and 4). I would not accept a teenager treating me badly either.

Personally if my teenager was repeatedly shoplifting I would not shelter them from the effects of getting caught, or being put on probation. If they were regularly dealing drugs I would perhaps shop them to the police. I would certainly stop any financial allowance for the sort of behaviour shown in the programme.

I WOULD consider rehabilitation programmes. but NOT these unregulated American ones. I would choose one run by professionals, programmes which are open to social services and police inspections. That might include a sort of wilderness therapy, possibly. But NOT these American or Carribean places which I see as a type of juvenile prison for those who have not officially (in some cases) been convicted of any crime.

Fennel · 02/02/2005 20:11

joolstoo - my view of those parents is pretty low, whatever you call their approach, it is a long way from what I meant by "civilised".

Fennel · 02/02/2005 20:17

maybe I am being unfair on the parents, am sure some of them tried very hard. and am sure that any of us could end up unlucky with a terrible teen.

but they did demonstrate a fairly awful lack of boundaries and control - as people noted at the beginning of the thread.

Original poster
happymerryberries · 02/02/2005 20:19

I'll be very interested in seeing how this progresses. I'll be very interested in the parental input section. This didn't happen in the last BC, but they did have a lecture session with the Psychologist.

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Original poster
happymerryberries · 02/02/2005 20:20

Oh and the cowboy camp is licenced by the Utah department for services (or some such). I would imagine that this means it is regulated

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Joolstoo · 02/02/2005 20:28

don't the Americans call it 'Zero Tolerance?' - it seems to work!

Original poster
happymerryberries · 02/02/2005 20:33

Interesting that today they have said that 9% of UK schools have serious probelms with behaviour.

They are offerening more 'expert' advice in how to deal with the probelm. I'm not holding my breath. Until we have some realistic sanctions nothing will change.

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Fennel · 02/02/2005 20:35

hmm. not quite sure how to put this but from my perspective the fact that it is in Utah is very relevant to the underlying moral and social values behind the Turnabout camp. I am fairly sure that these camps would not be legal in the UK in the way they are run in the US.

better not get started on the zero tolerance rule either....

Original poster
happymerryberries · 02/02/2005 20:51

While I have reservations about some aspects of Utah, I think that I have a right to go to work without being abused by the kids I teach. In that resect I agree with zero tolerence. I also think that teachers have the same rights as everyone else working with the public. Just because the people who abuse us are under 18 it doesn't make it right. No teacher should suffer verbal or physical abuse in the work place, any more than the pupils.

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Fennel · 02/02/2005 20:58

Well, HMB, I'm with you all the way on that. secondary school teachers.

I understood the Zero Tolerance rule to be the law in some American states that you are automatically jailed for 25 years for 3 offences, however minor. e.g. for 3 convictions of shoplifting as a teenager. Maybe I'm confused on what that one's called.

I was under the impression that in Utah it is illegal to have sex outside of marriage, or gay unions, or teach evolution. that was the sort of values I was meaning.

Original poster
happymerryberries · 02/02/2005 21:03

Don't think that it is illegal to have sex before marage...if so I broke the law when dh (then dp) and I visited. We were never asked for proof of marrage before getting a room!

It isn't illegal to teach evolution (a matter cloer to my heart I'm a biology teacher). It is more of an issue in the Southern states, i think. But even there you can teach it, you just ahve to teach creationism as well as another valid 'theory'. And I'll say no more on my feelings about that!

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Fennel · 02/02/2005 21:08

well it would take a while to check these laws on the Utah state constitution websites but perhaps we are off the point cos we are all apparently agreed on the unacceptability of delinquent teen behaviour in schools and at home. but would differ on ways of controlling or changing it.

alux · 02/02/2005 21:09

Fennel: I am curious at how you know that the workers at Turnabout Camp are not untrained and not professionals. I did not see a single thing in the episode that I would have considered humiliating or unsafe for these children. Granted this is only a tiny snippet of their time there. Can you imagine how these kids and parents could SUE in the US if their kids were not well looked after? Despite the 'hardships' they are yet to encounter?

Having nothing in this world is a good start towards appreciating having something. And this is one of the first and most enduring lessons these kids can learn there.

Original poster
happymerryberries · 02/02/2005 21:11

One thing is for sure, having too much did them no favours.

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alux · 02/02/2005 21:19

Fennel: when you say 'repeatedly shoplifting' and 'regularly dealing drugs' i saw the difference between you and I. It is that I would turn my kids over to the police the first time I could him or her doing anything illegal.

Being caught the first time certainly does not mean act being committed the first time.

Wake up call right then and there.

The teachers with best classroom management do not tolerate the slightest infringement more than once and neither does he or she warns more than once. they already know the rules, they do not need a warning. Kids break down adults with the constant drip drip drip not with a flood.

If they don't dare break the little rules for fear of sanction, they don't get round to the big problems later.

Fennel · 02/02/2005 21:21

alux I am going partly on the programme last night, and partly on the Turnabout website, and partly on reading about other more draconian versions of Brat Camp as mentioned by Aloha earlier in the thread.

one of the men we saw regularly in the programme did say "I don't have a ph.d. in psychology or anything, I'm just a cowboy".

I do think the Turnabout camp is quite different from the Redcliff one in this respect.

I do seem to be alone on this so may have to retire as a sole bleeding hearted liberal...

alux · 02/02/2005 21:39

It also seems Fennel that part of your issue lies not with the camp but with ways American (and Utah) I have lots of problems with things American - and I have lived both here and there to make the comparisons. And in the South in the state with the most 'dry' (no alcohol) counties. But I try to judge each thing American on its own merit. With sweeping generalisations like 'something like this would never be allowed over here' and 'lots of professionals would not agree with these methods' (well, lots of them would, too) weaken your points.

So, what is uncivilised with Brat Camp? Living under tarp? Using an outhouse? Washing in a cold stream? thise things are not uncivilised. Are they safe and well looked after in the environment they are? I think, yes.

Uh-hum. The homeless, where some of these characters are heading, live just like that, in the middle of civilised society like London but with the added incivilities like drugs, rape, muggings, prostitution.

Oh, if you read my post, I have a 15 yr old brat in my home at the moment. He is not living with his own parents because he can't behave there. His latest ploy less than 2 weeks ago was to report us to social services because we are 'bullying' him and 'denying him contact with his mother' and he threatened suicide and self harmed - all in the same day. His School's Child Protection officer referred it to Social Services who interviewed both he and I and guess what - we (my husband and I) have nothing to answer to. It's just his latest attempt to get his way.

alux · 02/02/2005 21:43

Fennel:
I consider by many (including myself) to be a liberal. But not a bleeding heart one. One who demands that my rights be respected and expect others - including my own blood - to repect them.

Fennel · 02/02/2005 21:49

was trying to leave the thread...

but: I didn't make those "sweeping generalisations". am not anti all things American.

I do think that many Americans have a different understanding of priorities in civil liberties issues to many British people. Utah was apparently the most strongly Republican state in the 2000 US elections. So yes I do probably have a problem with Utah politics. not with all americans.

alux · 02/02/2005 22:49

I'll let you leave the thread. Believe me, this is a person with very critical views of lots of things Americans, including Utah, the state of American democracy, of which the Rep party and Election 200O (and 2004) and the 'dead on arrival' state of their civil liberties are only small parts.

I don't think anyone believes that brat camp is the only alternative or is saying it is a cure all or the best alternative. It is one of many effective alternatives. I wouldn't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater by putting it down without looking at what it has to offer and improving on what it can.

alux · 02/02/2005 22:52

PS: but you DID make those generalisations: I quoted them though not word for word from your posts.

Joolstoo · 02/02/2005 23:28

alux - I like your arguments - I concur.

aloha · 02/02/2005 23:38

Fennel, I shall be watching next week's episode. The two institutions do sound very different from what you say and quote. The last lot did seem very in loco parentis, very patient and actually surprisingly warm and kind (in a mad 'we have native American names' sort of way) - sometimes in the face of a lot of provocation. However, the stuff about the Caribbean camps where children are marooned and humiliated for years and years really did chill my blood. Just horrible cruelty. Also I don't think wanting your children to be happy is a bad thing at all. In fact in this discussion it seems to be a total red herring, as if the kids are anything like the last lot, they are mostly very miserable and unhappy.