New Brat Camp Tonight

[happymerryberries]

I know this is the sort of TV I hate myself for watching, but I know I will be there at 9 tonight on C4.

One of the brats is a girl who announced to her mother's coffee circle that she had just had sex in a telephone box! OMG!!!!

I haven't seen this series yet, but I really, really didn't think the last series showed any remotely abusive behaviour - except from the awful teenagers!

The british kids were not forced into it, they agreed to go. In the US it sounds like they can be. However I don't think they are exactly free to go mid programme. But I think this is the same for most rehabs. It is defineatly the same as mental institutions which is the other place that is used to 'treat' these kids. They can be 'sectioned' against their will.

Personally I think some of these camps are a good idea, it seems to give these kids an opportunity to have space and to think.

I must confess that I have more dounts about the staff in this on than last years. Last years staff were almost pathologically patient with the rude, abusive, self distructive little darmings that they were looking after.

And I don't think that some of these kids are capable of giving true informed concent. All they want to concent to is drugs, sex and booze. Tough shit!

I read about a terrible brat-campish institution in the Carribean - it was featured in the Guardian a year or so ago. and I didn't see last year's brat camp, only last night's. so maybe this is why I am reacting more strongly than the people who saw last year's series - which was at a different wilderness school.

or is it worrying that I empathise, age 36, more with the teenagers than the parents?! despite having been a very docile teen.

If you are interested in last years info google redcliff accent (redcliff all one word btw) You can see the list of qualifications that the staff have.....chock full with councillors and even a social worker. It makes an interesting read, they have some resonable recovery rates and dont seem to be over hyping the results

Brain fart redcliff ascent

hmb - will do so.

it's not really the drugs, sex and booze which is the problem with the teenagers though is it, I mean plenty of teenagers and adults enjoy those things without being totally antisocial in all their behaviour. it's the way they think they can get away with everything such as stealing, violence etc.

Quite. The central problem is that they don't think that anything they do has a consequence and seem incapable of taking responsibility for their actions. I would think that their parents (with whom I have the greatest sympathy btw) have not helped them is this.

They do not appear to have to take responsibility for their actions in the Utah camp - they are being forced to behave without choice. That's hardly a template for self-responsibility.

I agree that time for self-reflection is a useful part of the programme - but enforced solitary confinement in those circles for the first 3 days before they have actually done anything seriously bad?

I also think the cowboys' approach is inconsistent - they talk about the importance of respect and then do not show the kids much respect even from the start - "only adults have the right to have an identity" (according to the guardian article one of the Utah cowboys said this).

Have a look at post Brat camp stories
here

and
here

These are good and show that they do work

In the last series the 'responsibility' worked well. They had to hike each day. Once they got to the site they would set up camp and could rest. If they got there early the camp was easier to set and the kids has an easier and more comfortable time. If they refused to hike, and some did, the staff would just wait it out with them. They had a choice and had to take the consequences of arriving late and in the dark.

none of us have total free choice without consequences fennel....that is all part of being in society.

Re respect.

I am always polite with the kids I teach.

However I expect their respect...I know I deserve it. They earn my respect. They have it when I know they deserve it.

I think its brilliant - more power to their elbow (the grown up that is )

I'll be glued again this year!

(maybe because its never happened to me BUT who lets their kids tell them to FO and let them get away with it?)

Ok I have looked at the websites for Redcliff Ascent and also for this year's Turnabout Ranch. Quite different.

For example, the orientation phase for Redcliff Ascent is described as follows:

After being oriented to the program rules and expectations, the student will be transported to the acclimation group where they will have the opportunity to become acquainted with the environment. They will undergo a psychosocial evaluation by the treating therapist after which a treatment plan will be developed.

Redcliff actually sounds OK to me, depending on the child and their problems.

Turnabout Ranch describes its orientation phase as follows:

Level I is designed to disorient and upset the youth's everyday patterns of defiance and control. It is designed to take the rebellious, selfish, undisciplined, defiant, or unmotivated youth and strip him or her of old defenses, attitudes, and facades.

They're very different institutions.

Redcliff also insists that all jewelry, piercings, own clothes etc are removed at the start of the treatment. They say that once the kids knows who they realy are they can dress how they like. They feel that the child has to lose the 'immage' they set up to know who they realy are

In case anyone missed it (like me! )it's on E4 on Saturday night at 21:05.

Fennel: I am curious to how much exposure you have had to unruly teens irrespective of socio-economic backgrounds. I was a docile teen too but teaching has taught me a lot about the mindset of well-behaved and poorly behaved teens and how they turn out that way.

I agree with all that hmb and beachyhead have said.

Being a loving parent many times means saying NO and and sticking by no, no matter how what.
Say no because you love them.

That all behaviour have consequences - including good behaviour having favourable consequences.

Some parents have 'made their children happy' at a very high price. - ie - the own child's ability later in life to make responsible, life affirming choices for themselves.

I am sure that when the parents 'did everything' to make the child happy, they did not see this fault.

Parenting has become such an isolating vocation so it is inevitable some of us fail because we have lost out on the 'it takes a village to raise a child' concept.

The parents on this show have stood up to say: I love my child but I have failed as a parent. I don't want to fail anymore. [applause]

Alux - I have had quite a lot of exposure to unruly teens. went to a standard comp with many unruly teens. also have cousins who I was close to who had drug, alcohol problems, school expulsions, etc. We also have a chronic kleptomaniac in the family. I also have worked with street organisations with homeless, drug problems, prostitutes and so on, and in hostels for people with such problems.

I am not advocating not saying no or being firm with teenagers, not at all.
I don't have a problem with other rehabilitation programmes. I DO have a problem with Turnabouut Ranch and similar institutions where affluent parents can decide to have their child modified by perhaps untrained non-professionals.

and also, to return to an earlier analogy. just because something works does not make it acceptable. Torture works to extract information or modify behaviour, that's why armies use it. I would still say it's unacceptable.

(we could get side-tracked into a long "does the end ever justify the means?" argument here)

The one real advantage that all of these Brat Camps have is that the kids can't just walk away. You could try to instill dicipline into these kids at home but I rather feel that given their current mind set they would just tell you to 'Fuck off' and walk out. In the Utah desert they have to listen becuaes there isn't anywhere to walk off to and no drugs etc to submerge themselves in. And once they do listen they may well decide to change.

Now one thing is sure, unless they want to change in the end none of this is worth anything. But how long do you have to wait for them to grow up if your 15 year old is downing a bottle of vodka? How soon before she chokes on her vomit, gets pregnant or a dose of the clap or HIV from unprotected sex?

When were you in school fennel? I am old and went in the 70s.....things are much worse now. I couldn't belive how much behaviour had deteriorated when I first started teaching. Largly because kids think they can get away with anything....and frequently do.

hmb - as ever - very sensible! - I agree. These kids are so transparent with their 'I'll change if you just let me go' mantras!

The shock is that someone is saying 'No' to them - now there's a thing!

It's sad really - at the bottom of it all - all they want is a guiding hand.

You can almost see them working their way through their range to tactics can't you?

Just take me back and I will be good! Honest!

I'm not going/doing that....stamp of foot.

Cry, I need to talk to my mum.....cue lots of tears (yes that will be the mother you told to 'fuck off you bitch from hell' will it?)

If I stay here I will die!

This is so unfair!

I totally do not condone any aspect of these terrible teenagers' behaviour. I am not saying their behaviour is not appalling and unacceptable.

I however do feel that if you want to instill civilised, socially acceptable behaviour in people, whether children or adults, then it is preferable to do it by civilised means. or even to fail but by civlised means.

this does not mean I have no experience of delinquent behaviour - many people, eg psychologist, social workers, probation officers, trained in the areas of dealing with difficult teenagers would also advocate less extreme measures than brat camp.

Issymum, yes, that was sort of what i said in my first post on this thread, about the role of the parents and their interactions with the child being the problem to address.