Adolescence

[heartsinvisiblefury]

What an amazing piece of television. Stephen Graham is exceptional. Highly recommend this - on Netflix.

Wuthering Heights? Another one??? Seems to be a new adaptation every year.

Great for the young actor, but Jacob Elordi is quite far from my understanding of the role. It’ll be lush though, if made by Emeral Fennell.

Watched the first episode, thought it was a pile of shite, unfortunately. Casting a sweet and very young-looking 13 year-old to make us sympathise with a murderer, I presume?

Yeah, not my cup of tea.

You presume wrong 🤷‍♀️ that’s not the reason

What a silly comment. Not all murderers look like Freddy Kruger!

I was disappointed, perhaps it was the hype! I will give many congratulations to Stephen Graham and the young lad that played Jamie for amazing performances! Not what I was expecting and I didn't enjoy it but made myself watch it untill the end. Loved the first episode but after that no..

Not at all. His appearance is very relevant to the story itself. But you don't know that if you haven't watched it.

It’s about a 13 year old girl being murdered by her schoolmate - I don’t think anyone is supposed to “enjoy” watching it ☹️

I just don't get the 'amazing performances' plaudits.

Watch Graham in any of his previous roles and that is the character he always plays, the staring irritable scouser and the kid who played Jamie was absolutely underwhelming in his switch from sobbing bed wetter to stroppy prat trying to scare a what should have been experienced psychologist.

I thought it was good but some things put me off. I felt like we didn’t hear enough about his motivations and incel culture. I didn’t think the actor who played Jamie wasn’t cast very well - he clearly wasn’t “ugly” and I didn’t understand why he was being bullied, he didn’t seem particularly different to any of the other kids shown at the school. Also the names Jamie and Lisa for the kids sound more like teenagers in the 90s.

He was being bullied for being an incel - which he was - he asked Katie out because he thought everyone seeing the pic of her boobs would make her weak and desperate - not because he liked her - and then she called him out over it, which then led to others bullying him, spitting on him, tripping him up - but it was “weak” Katie he chose to
murder - not any of the other bullies

he wasn’t ugly and was the same as all the other kids - that’s the point

I’ve watched it all now and just can’t understand the hype but really admire what it’s done for the discourse.

The things that throw you off were just too distracting. In the final ep it seemed odd it would have taken so long to get to court. And why did the mum not make herself known on the phone call in the van? Why would they not interact with Jamie from when he came in from school until 1 in the morning and think that’s okay? Plot devices obviously but just seemed to be missing realistic details to ground it.

But I took Eddie’s behaviour as indicative of the incredible strain he is under and didn’t think him abusive. Although I’ll never see Stephen Graham as anything but the Scouser who stares and sniffs now

'He was being bullied for being an incel'

What 13 yr old isn't celibate though. He was a young looking 13 too, he could've passed for 11.

I know he is 15 irl but the role should've been for a year10/yr11 age group imo not a kid who looked like he still played with lego.

the best they could come up with was his Dad didn't support him at football?
The incel part was mentioned out of the blue and hardly referred to again.

This is kind of the whole point. Behaviour plenty of people see as "normal" is actually incredibly damaging and it is perpetuated through the generations.

That was not a healthy family dynamic by any stretch. The fact that Jamie wasn't being physically abused like his dad was, or starved, or entirely ignored by his parents doesn't mean he was getting a good upbringing even is his parents were doing their best.

When Eddie was kicking off that they all had to go to the shop, Amanda looked genuinely scared. The feeling of walking on eggshells so as not to exacerbate his temper really was palpable and it was clear this wasn't the first time from the way she and the daughter reacted to it. This is the man that tore down a shed when he was angry. He chased and manhandled a teen, and then trashed his own van before screaming at a security guard. That isn't normal, or certainly shouldn't be, and living in a household with that kind of explosive anger is damaging. Yes, it was a high stress situation, but that is clearly how he handles stress, and violence is what he has taught his son.

Even little things like the fact Eddie pointed out that his father hadn't written his birthday card and it was (presumably) his father's wife. More gendered stereotypes being enforced through the generations. It might be reality, but why is it? Why isn't a father writing a card to his son rather than getting his wife to do it? Jamie's experience of men is that they have explosive anger and are violent (whether to other people or objects) and leave the "girly" stuff like cooking and sending cards to the women, who are expected to do it and listen to what the man says (e.g. I don't care you're halfway through making breakfast, stop immediately and come to the shop with me).

The way Eddie went completely silent when Jamie said he was going to change his plea was a direct reflection of him turning away at football. He's embarrassed/disappointed in his son and therefore can't cope with interacting with him, so he ignores him. That silence went well beyond just trying to process a few emotions and figure out what to say, and then mum comes along with inane chatter about food (of course, she's a women, therefore has cooking on the brain), trying to distract everyone and bring tensions down, but all it does is dismiss the genuinely important thing Jamie had just communicated about his plea. Jamie has no respect for her, just goes straight to his room and when she tells him to turn off the light (in what sounds like a pretty weak and ineffective way) he does that, doesn't even say goodnight, and she doesn't even bother checking to see whether he's actually gone to bed. It's all completely dysfunctional, even though the parents clearly love their son.

The way Jamie was standing over Briony to intimidate her, and the way he was speaking to her - that smacked of family influence, not just online. "Get that through your fucking little head" is exactly the kind of language a man with explosive anger and misogynistic tendencies would use towards his wife that disagreed with him, as is using physicality to intimidate, and it wasn't a stretch to think "I bet he learnt that one from his dad". Women being lesser to men is some this his parents and grandparents have been reinforcing his whole life through their actions, so the jump to "and therefore as a man I am entitled to women" isn't exactly hard. It's a dynamic that absolutely primes boys and men for the manosphere because they feel like they are more deserving because they're men, it's the women's fault for not falling in line, and it must be the 80/20 rule causing it. It's their way of rationalising why they aren't getting what they want and shifting the blame away from themselves or acknowledging that women/girls have agency and other priorities.

With that expectation of power over and obedience from women he gets from his home dynamic, paired with the red pill position of "women want chads and are sluts only good for sex", plus hormones and being 13 with all that comes with it...I don't think it's that far fetched that he'd stab a girl that was laughing at him publicly online, mocking him, and in his view didn't want him even when she was at her lowest because he's a beta and just wanted chad Fidget instead, which just shows how stupid she is because Fidget is clearly an idiot (for showing everyone the pictures before getting more).

The Atwood quote is incredibly apt. Men are scared women will laugh at them, women are scared men will kill them.

I agree with this, in most murders the victim is often forgotten and the perpetrator is who takes centre stage. I understand they were telling a story about how this boy became this way but I wanted to know about the victim and her family.

@GoBackToTheStart

👏 brilliantly explained

So well put. I agree with every word of this

I feel that Eddie thinks that by working hard as a dad and not hitting his son was at least an improvement on his own childhood. But the problem was that Eddie was still carrying it with him. Did he think Jamie had it easier and resent him for it? I’m not sure.
There was a lot about the show that confused me. Jamie clearly has a nasty streak but it seems entirely hidden from his family. Entirely. Do parents ever get little flashes of it? I know teenagers can become adept at putting on different faces to different people.
I know much has been made of the one-shot format, which is impressive, but I wonder if it meant missing out useful parts of the narrative?
I suppose the whole show was meant to provoke confusion, as the parents feel when Jamie is arrested.
I think the mum’s character moved me the most. Her upset that the dad is chosen at the police station felt like an instant reaction. She’s clearly very bright and switched-on, but you can see she feels constrained and on eggshells, balancing the family and shielding her daughter.
One thing that was missed was any connection between Jamie and his sister. Does he care for her? How would he feel if she were mistreated by a boy? I was very close to my brother as teenagers and we definitely knew stuff about each other our parents had no idea about. To us it wasn’t major, but we’d cover for each other over little things all the time.
I think traditional drama has a more defined narrative, especially if it’s based on an actual case, like in Little Boy Blue.
One person I have been thinking about all week is Brianna Ghey’s mum. Her child was brutally murdered in a planned attack where she was lured to the location. And after going through all of that, and the court case, she found it in her heart to contact one of the parents of a convicted child, and have a connection there. Her feeling was that they’d both lost a child and she didn’t want to live in hate.
How she found that strength I have no idea. What a wonderful and brave lady.

She wasn’t there to do therapy with him, she was there to do an assessment.

I thought it was excellent, the one shot scene is very difficult to do and is probably why the kids school part was the worst bit. I think whenever we watch a crime related series we want an explanation or to understand the reason they did it, in reality kids brains are underdeveloped and they go through phases of obsession and irrational behaviours where there might not actually be a clear indicator, I think this captured that point perfectly. I actually wish he had not brought up the football bit to his wife, I would say that behaviour is more common than not on the sideline by parents and not only Dads!!

'With that expectation of power over and obedience from women he gets from his home dynamic, paired with the red pill position of "women want chads and are sluts only good for sex", plus hormones and being 13 with all that comes with it...I don't think it's that far fetched that he'd stab a girl that was laughing at him'

It is absolutely farfetched that he'd stab a girl. Every home has an expectation of obedience, 13yrd olds have always been hormonal, the dynamics between boy and girls/men and women is nothing new.

At best he was just an evil kid like the other juvenile child killers before him. The whole premise that it's his dad's fault for being a bit irritable or social media's for radicalising him is preposterous.

I think what you didn’t see was almost more telling. I keep thinking about the football. He wasn’t interested and wasn’t any good at it but yet his dad kept dragging him along and was then embarrassed by Jamie’s lack of prowess. You can only imagine the discussions or lack thereof around that in the house. And going back even further. Was the dad disappointed his first child was a girl and then when he got his boy used that as his opportunity to try and even inadvertently create a mini me?

I had wondered initially whether it might have been better to have had Jamie’s older sibling being a brother. Whether it might have shown nature/nurture more clearly. But (and I’m coming at this as an observer as I only have boys and only have a sister so never been part of a mixed sex children nuclear family dynamic) does it perhaps show that they’ve even subconsciously parented their boy and girl differently?

I think after this thread I might watch again, reading everyone else’s perspectives has been really interesting.

There’s a massive difference between being celibate and being an incel and blaming girls/women for not having sex with you.

This is why they should make another series that doesn’t include Jamie, but is totally focused on Katie and her family.

The fact you think a man smashing up sheds, dismissing his wife and children, instilling fear in his family, chasing and physically assaults teenagers, and trashing his own property is him being "a bit irritable" is genuinely concerning, and part of the problem. That kind of behaviour isn't being "a bit irritable". It's being abusive, and shouldn't be normalised.

Obedience in a home extends to children obeying their parents. It is not an expectation in any healthy and equal dynamic between partners, nor between men and women.

The fact that the "dynamic between men and women is nothing new" is exactly why VAWG is so common. It wasn't that long ago that men were legally entitled to beat and rape their wives in the UK, and in some cultures it remains permitted. Men like Eddie don't see themselves as part of the problem like those "other" men because they aren't physically abusing their wife and kids, but they are absolutely still part of the problem. Add that to boys in the modern day getting those attitudes from their families, friends, and an entire internet echo chamber of other disillusioned boys and men at all hours of the day, every time they open their phone, and of course its a recipe for radicalisation. Once the algorithms pick up red pill pages it just spits more and more at them, so they see it as normal because the algorithm isn't showing them the other side. It becomes the only truth. Adults can barely cut through bullshit on the internet, yet kids are somehow expected to without supervision. How is a kid like Jamie, with an emotionally unavailable, violent and explosively tempered dad, that has not really been taught that women are equal (he might have heard the words but he doesn't believe it, and nor is that surprising given what he sees day to day), expected to see the manosphere for the toxic place it is, rather than as a haven where people understand him?

It isn't as black and white as "it's his dad's fault". It's society's fault, but suggesting his dad has nothing to do with it and Jamie is just "evil" is, frankly, laughable, and shows a complete failure to understand the influence of dysfunctional home dynamics on children.