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Our Flag Means Death: Thread 3. It's still utterly brilliant. We are still obsessed.

966 replies

TriceratopsRocks · 21/06/2024 01:11

Ahoy again mateys! Set sail aboard thread 3 where we still wax lyrical about our favourite show, its cast, its music, fan edits, fan fiction and more 😁(there may also be just a little obsessing over our fabulous leads - pictures extremely welcome)!

If you haven’t yet seen Our Flag Means Death, what are you waiting for? Go watch it (on BBC iPlayer), then come back here and join us. But be warned, some of you may find yourself as hooked as we are 🎣.

You may have heard that this is a comedy about pirates and think it's not for you. But it’s actually a show about self-discovery, healing and found-family with a love story at its heart. The joint leads are both damaged by abusive backgrounds and want what the other has. The show is about their healing and their respective journeys. It’s tender, romantic, funny, emotionally intelligent and utterly refreshing. It subverts genre expectations. There is comedy, absurdity and a good amount of heartbreak and despair - sometimes in the same scene! The acting is outstanding (Taika Waititi and Rhys Darby especially). But the writing, music, costumes, sets, the sheer attention to detail – for a show with only 18 half-hour episodes it is still keeping us talking, two full threads and many re-watches later.

If you think this might appeal, do watch it and come back and talk to us. It would be lovely if more were to join our crew. But it's a show that needs time. The 2nd lead arrives in episode 3, so you need to give it at least 4 episodes as that’s when the tone changes and the main story starts. It still took me several more episodes to fully appreciate what I was watching, but by then I was hooked and had to immediately watch it all over again. If you like Good Omens, What We Do in the Shadows, Ghosts or even Bridgerton, this might be the show for you.

(I’ve kept this spoiler free, but if you scroll down you will no doubt find many, so beware!)

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/telly_addicts/5008593-our-flag-means-death-its-utterly-brilliant-and-i-am-obsessed?reply=135294204
Thread 2 : https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/telly_addicts/5076581-our-flag-means-death-thread-2-still-utterly-brilliant-and-we-are-still-obsessed?reply=136060611

Page 38 | Our Flag Means Death. It's utterly brilliant and I am obsessed! | Mumsnet

I'm sure I found a thread on this series a while ago, but now season 2 is out I've looked back and I can't find anything apart from the...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/telly_addicts/5008593-our-flag-means-death-its-utterly-brilliant-and-i-am-obsessed?reply=135294204

OP posts:
Thread gallery
187
CarpeDiem83 · 22/06/2024 13:54

Oh and @MrsJellybee I have had the same theory around Chauncey's death being a dream. I feel like otherwise it would have come up in series 2 but perhaps it was just sacrificed for the reduced running time/number of episodes.

MrsJellybee · 22/06/2024 17:44

Y’all not supposed to simply agree with me. 🤣

Have a fine fish. 🎣🥰

Our Flag Means Death: Thread 3. It's still utterly brilliant. We are still obsessed.
TriceratopsRocks · 22/06/2024 18:38

@MrsJellybee I've been wanting to reply to your post all day, but have only just been able to get to my PC. First things first.

‘Better alive than dead!’. Ed and Stede now want to live, and it’s all because the other is alive in the world.
to Ed, that is still betraying ‘Us’, because Stede is he, and he is Stede, and ‘either was the other’s mine’. They are one.
It was Stede now wanting to live that struck me this episode, but you are quite correct that Ed has already had that same epiphany. I love your reference to the poem again. "He gave us up" makes it clear how Ed already sees them as bound together.

Izzy- a white man who has bargained with the British for a man of colour to be ‘handed over to him’ as payment for services to the Crown ~shudder~.
This is actually one of 2 things I removed from my post. We've only talked a little about racism in this show. Not only is Izzy a hypocrite for doing himself exactly what he is accusing Ed of ("lick[ing] the King's boots" when it's Izzy who called in the English to do a deal with them), but giving up Stede in exchange for Ed? Izzy's reputation and power already come entirely from Blackbeard and until now he's been reliant on keeping Ed controlled and dependent. But this deal would give him complete power over Ed, backed by the English navy. Izzy will literally own Ed, and given the time they are in I know exactly what that sounds like.

I love Ed, but he can’t listen for toffee. Or understand nonverbal cues. The neurodivergence is strong in this one.
We've talked a bit before about both Ed and Stede's ND. I was trying to think yesterday of any occasion at all where we see Ed react appropriately based on facial cues or body language only. Off the top of my head I couldn't think of any, and I still can't. I put Ed's behaviour in 1.9 down to a combination of ND and wishful thinking. But it may be the ND element is much stronger than perhaps I've been giving it credit for. Let's face it - the words Stede uses are the words Ed wants to hear.

OP posts:
TriceratopsRocks · 22/06/2024 18:45

So, on to your theory, @MrsJellybee . I can honestly say that this has never crossed my mind. I think it's brilliant, but I don't know that I can say I believe it. There are definitely some things that don't make sense in the way that the situation was presented to us. First, the sound of gunshots carry a long way. It would definitely have been heard by someone, especially at night. Even if all the officers were partying inside, I don't believe that an academy for wayward seaman would have no guards outside at all. So that's a point in favour of your theory. A gunshout should definitely have been investigated, but wasn't.

Where did the door guard go? Chauncey may have simply ordered him away. He's an admiral after all, but he must have been around somewhere while Stede was being abducted, but I can see why he wouldn't come looking - he already knew Stede was escaping that night.

But as for the rest of it, I really can't say that anything else gives me clues to support your idea. It's not that hard for Chauncey to repeat what we know is in Stede's own head, because it's the opinion he's had of Stede all his life. Stede has always been a 'nothing' to Chauncy and there is no way he would ever accept that Stede has anything positive going for him, so Stede's positive interactions with Ed that meant Ed gave up piracy can only be the result of some weird, un-human spell, because noone in their right mind could ever think enough of Stede to want to do that. Same with his dear brother Nigel; in Chauncey's mind, Nigel is so far above Stede that it's simply not possible for Stede to kill him honestly because Stede is simply not capable without some sort of demonic intervention. Stede's family of course are not ruined/defiled but freed; again, Chauncey would never see it that way. But it makes sense that Chauncey and Stede have the same thoughts because Chauncey is one of the people who has been feeding Stede those thoughts, all his life, until Stede fully believed it himself. And he has believed it for years. No wonder Stede is agreeing with him.

As for dying the same way - well, it was ridiculously impractical with Nigel and equally impractical with Chauncey. But we do see the rock he tripped on firmly buried in the ground so I think it's definitely possible.

And Chauncey isn't in nightclothes btw. He's in his uniform minus his jacket. The shirt (and waistcoat) he is wearing is the same one from on the ship when he was being Mr Wavy blade. I'd actually been studying the officers different uniform styles yesterday - thinking about how impractical his Admiral's one was with all those ruffles hanging down over his hands while waving his sword about. The other officers have a totally different style of shirt (and cuffs on their jacket). Yes, I am that sad for little details! So in my mind, Chauncey had been drinking heavily, removed his jacket and then gone out to find Stede. You can see in the pic that he's still dressed.

The last thing is it never being mentioned in S2. We know about the run time and the budget cuts so that is one explanation. But the bigger thing is that to Stede, killing Chauncey wasn't the reason he ran. There was no need to bring it up because it would have sounded like an excuse, and Stede isn't the type to make excuses. He has always run away from situations that make him uncomfortable or anxious and this is by far the most scared we have ever seen him. Running away was probably going to happen even without Chauncey. So to Stede, it wasn't relevant to mention it. In S2 he had recognised his S1 failings and is trying to make up for them. Telling Ed about Chauncey would cheapen what he was trying to do, which was to wholeheartedly apologise and win Ed back. He would never want it to sound like he was making excuses so not telling Ed makes perfect sense to me.

So, although your theory is a wonderful one, and definitely worthy of further consideration, you haven't convinced me yet! It's fascinating to think about though.

Blimey that was long!! Sorry 😅

OP posts:
TriceratopsRocks · 22/06/2024 18:48

I forgot to post the pic I mentioned

Our Flag Means Death: Thread 3. It's still utterly brilliant. We are still obsessed.
Our Flag Means Death: Thread 3. It's still utterly brilliant. We are still obsessed.
OP posts:
BillStickersIsInnocent · 22/06/2024 19:26

Just saw this fabulous pic on Twitter

Our Flag Means Death: Thread 3. It's still utterly brilliant. We are still obsessed.
MrsJellybee · 22/06/2024 19:35

@TriceratopsRocks hello! 👋👋👋

Thank you for your extremely detailed reply which has given me a lot to think about. You are right. Chauncey isn’t in night-clothes, but is most certainly in a state of undress which would be considered practically naked within the time period.

I think the straight reading of the Chauncey episode is it was meant to be real. I do think the show’s writers meant us to think it happened. But we also know that we, the viewer, do not have to accept their intentions if other interpretations are proven valid. So, to support your points, mirroring or repetition is part of the shows fabric, so the fact the brothers’ deaths are similar is inkeeping with one of the show’s motifs in that respect. It’s almost as if until Stede fixes his own mental well-being, the Badmintons of this world will keep showing up and bringing him down. And of course Stede’s internal record is that of his father, the Badmintons, the voice of toxic masculinity. That Chauncey speaks Stede’s internal monologue aloud is entirely in-keeping with what we know of both characters.

What I am doing really is offering an alternative interpretation of the Chauncey event as a mental abberation of Stede’s. I think the previous hallucination of Nigel does lend weight to this. Because the show isn’t reality (what? What?) I can believe both versions depending on my mood. I do like the psychological interpretation as it helps me with the non-explanation narrative gap to Ed -which I know we have to take on grace happened off-scene. It also helps me with Ed not going to look for Stede. Because if Stede very nearly died, or was in fact dead at the hands of Chauncey, then Ed’s not going to look for him is placed in a different light to Stede having had a breakdown and walking back to his wife.

In one version I feel Ed has been very wronged; in the other, still wronged, but less so. And if Stede had been shot, Ed wouldn’t have been wronged at all. Yet, he’d have still waited on the jetty then rowed away, heartbroken. Why Stede doesn’t turn up is so important to me, and I like to wallow in Stede having as much culpability as possible. Possibly because I’m sadomasochistic because you know Stede is my boy🤣But if it really is all on Stede, even if he can’t help the breakdown, and there was no Chauncey, then my sympathy for Ed goes up tenfold. And I kinda like that. Now it really, really hurts 🤣😭

MrsJellybee · 22/06/2024 19:37

BillStickersIsInnocent · 22/06/2024 19:26

Just saw this fabulous pic on Twitter

Good God, Rhys has no right owning pins like that. That thud you hear is @TriceratopsRocks hitting the deck 🤣

TriceratopsRocks · 22/06/2024 19:39

MrsJellybee · 22/06/2024 19:37

Good God, Rhys has no right owning pins like that. That thud you hear is @TriceratopsRocks hitting the deck 🤣

Hehe that would be the case were I not already intimately familiar with that picture 🤣

OP posts:
BillStickersIsInnocent · 22/06/2024 19:45

Ha ha!

I still haven’t found that bts shot of Rhys in his English soldier uniform. I keep looking!

TriceratopsRocks · 22/06/2024 20:12

@MrsJellybee I should have made my enormous post even longer by agreeing that Stede's hallucinations of Nigel definitely lend weight to your theory. And your theory is brilliant - I'm so impressed you even thought of it!

You make a very good point about the writers and their clever use of mirroring. And it would be an incredible misdirection and reveal if Chauncey had turned up in S3.

I'm definitely open to it as a possibility, but I'm still sticking with my straight reading for now. I can't think properly atm though as I'm currently trying to beat DH at Richard Osman's house of games. 😁 I might well come back to this later...

OP posts:
MrsJellybee · 22/06/2024 20:30

TriceratopsRocks · 22/06/2024 20:12

@MrsJellybee I should have made my enormous post even longer by agreeing that Stede's hallucinations of Nigel definitely lend weight to your theory. And your theory is brilliant - I'm so impressed you even thought of it!

You make a very good point about the writers and their clever use of mirroring. And it would be an incredible misdirection and reveal if Chauncey had turned up in S3.

I'm definitely open to it as a possibility, but I'm still sticking with my straight reading for now. I can't think properly atm though as I'm currently trying to beat DH at Richard Osman's house of games. 😁 I might well come back to this later...

Can you imagine Chauncey appearing in a potential S3? 🤯

You don’t need to agree 🙂 The canon-reading and weight of the argument is that it happens as seen. But one could play devil’s advocate for an alternative interpretation which I think there is at least some evidence for, and which I personally find more emotionally satisfying. Because pain.

I agree that if Stede had said ‘But Chauncey…’ in the couch scene it would’ve sounded trite. He so owns his behaviour: ‘I panicked’. For me though, the Chauncey incident does mitigate Stede’s culpability a lot. A man on the edge is then very-nearly executed by a bullet to the face. The fact he walks all night barefoot… he’s out of his mind (btw, the piano music when he opens the door to his house… 😔when I realised what he’d done the first viewing, I actually shouted ‘no!’. I scared DH 🤣).

I wish there’d been a line from Ed at some point to show he knows. Perhaps during the final fuckery, where Ed might say - ‘if we see any more Badminton-types, leave them to me’. There must be Badminton cousins or something, possibly the family Squash 🤷🏻‍♀️🤣. It’s just a loose end. There just wasn’t enough time to cover everything, I guess.

I love Richard Osman, but his books are crap. I can’t believe he gave up
Pointless to write them.

CarterBeatsTheDevil · 22/06/2024 20:42

TriceratopsRocks · 22/06/2024 19:39

Hehe that would be the case were I not already intimately familiar with that picture 🤣

Tattooed on the inside of her eyelids, just like Ed-manacled-to-the-ship is on mine

TriceratopsRocks · 22/06/2024 20:44

But @MrsJellybee I do agree about the precedent for the hallucinations lending weight! We've already seen it so we know it can happen again.

I know what you mean about Stede going back home. I also said "Noooo!" and felt devastated. I didn't really understand how he could have done it. But as you say he was a completely broken man at that point so on rewatches it did make sense.

I've never read one of RO's books but DH and I both like the game show :)

OP posts:
TriceratopsRocks · 22/06/2024 20:47

CarterBeatsTheDevil · 22/06/2024 20:42

Tattooed on the inside of her eyelids, just like Ed-manacled-to-the-ship is on mine

No, the one that's currently tattooed on my eyelids is the Rhys one upthread there! 😍

OP posts:
TriceratopsRocks · 22/06/2024 21:17

BillStickersIsInnocent · 22/06/2024 19:45

Ha ha!

I still haven’t found that bts shot of Rhys in his English soldier uniform. I keep looking!

Please do keep looking. Stede in uniform is definitely one my favourites so I'd really love to see the photo you are thinking of. My favourite Stede 'eyelid tatoo' type pics are actually these two (which probably won't be a surprise to most of you). I can have one on each can't I?

Our Flag Means Death: Thread 3. It's still utterly brilliant. We are still obsessed.
Our Flag Means Death: Thread 3. It's still utterly brilliant. We are still obsessed.
OP posts:
MrsJellybee · 22/06/2024 21:20

@TriceratopsRocks I rather like the one with the telescope too posted first page. The expression…

MrsJellybee · 22/06/2024 21:22

https://www.tumblr.com/sugashook/754011322112409600/the-fallen-angel-alexandre-cabanel-1847-ed-teach?source=share

@CarterBeatsTheDevil @TriceratopsRocks

Thought you’d both appreciate this tumblr post

Our Flag Means Death: Thread 3. It's still utterly brilliant. We are still obsessed.
TriceratopsRocks · 22/06/2024 21:35

MrsJellybee · 22/06/2024 21:20

@TriceratopsRocks I rather like the one with the telescope too posted first page. The expression…

You see, when you say "Stede with telescope" this is the scene I think of...
I completely adore it and it contains one my favourite exchanges in the entire show:

Olu: Trust me captain, you got to take your mind of them for a bit
Stede: They're the furthest thing from my mind, that's why I've got the * telescope!

(* I always think he wants to insert an appropriate swear word here, although I can't actually hear one)

Our Flag Means Death: Thread 3. It's still utterly brilliant. We are still obsessed.
OP posts:
MrsJellybee · 22/06/2024 21:38

I will take Stede and his telescope in all its forms.

(‘They’re the furthest thing from my mind…’ yeah, that line’s brilliant!)

btw, the diver fan-fic has ruined the Eiffel Tower for me! 🤣

MrsJellybee · 22/06/2024 21:41

I thought we all needed to see this…

Our Flag Means Death: Thread 3. It's still utterly brilliant. We are still obsessed.
TriceratopsRocks · 22/06/2024 21:42

MrsJellybee · 22/06/2024 21:41

I thought we all needed to see this…

LOL 🤣 Yes I liked that one and thought the recreation in 'divers' completely suited them.

OP posts:
CarterBeatsTheDevil · 22/06/2024 21:45

MrsJellybee · 22/06/2024 21:22

https://www.tumblr.com/sugashook/754011322112409600/the-fallen-angel-alexandre-cabanel-1847-ed-teach?source=share

@CarterBeatsTheDevil @TriceratopsRocks

Thought you’d both appreciate this tumblr post

I am enjoying these immensely!

CarterBeatsTheDevil · 22/06/2024 21:46

MrsJellybee · 22/06/2024 21:41

I thought we all needed to see this…

Classic TW!

Isthisjustnormal · 22/06/2024 21:49

MrsJellybee · 21/06/2024 14:30

Welcome, @Isthisjustnormal. I’m pretty new to the fandom too. I was a normal person until March 🙂. How is your second watch going? It was the second watch that really caused my hyper-fixation. You will get so much more out of it the second viewing.

I dabble in the fan-fic. @BeBraveLittlePenguin is our main crack dealer source for all things AO3. @TriceratopsRocks is also a fine connoisseur of our two favourite pirates in any universe.

If you scroll down here, there are a number of links to the best fanfics.
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/telly_addicts/5076581-our-flag-means-death-thread-2-still-utterly-brilliant-and-we-are-still-obsessed?page=9

The one we’re all waiting for the update on is “Temptation ‘Verse”by Shearwater.

Here is ‘the sort’ of prequel - Up, down, turn around
https://archiveofourown.org/works/43672797/chapters/109819575

Here is the ongoing fic - ‘Constellationism https://archiveofourown.org/works/45617446/chapters/114787039

The writing and characterisation are exquisite.

We’re so glad you’re here.

Second watch is going well! Dh still doesn’t get it (despite loving lots of previous Taika Waititi stuff) but Ds (late teens) is watching with me and loving it!! he’s a massive One Piece fan (Pirate manga, albeit more supernatural!) so builds very much into existing interests. Thank you for the fanfic starters for 10. Will have a look when I’m feeling brave ;-)

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