Our Flag Means Death: Thread 2. Still utterly brilliant and we are still obsessed!

[TriceratopsRocks]

Ahoy there mateys! Hop aboard our ‘safe space ship’ thread 2, where we can continue to wax lyrical about our favourite show.

If you haven’t yet seen Our Flag Means Death, what are you waiting for? Do go watch it (on BBC iPlayer) and then come back here and join us.

You may have heard that this is a comedy about pirates and think that's not for you. But it’s actually about self-discovery, healing and found-family with a love story at its heart. It does begin as a sort of pirate workplace comedy, but in episode 4 the tone changes and that’s where the main story really starts. The joint leads are both damaged by abusive backgrounds and think they want what the other has. The show is about their healing and their respective journeys. It’s tender, romantic, funny, emotionally intelligent and utterly refreshing. It subverts genre expectations. There is comedy, absurdity and a good amount of heartbreak and despair - sometimes in the same scene! The acting is outstanding (Taika Waititi and Rhys Darby especially). But the writing, music, costumes, sets, the sheer attention to detail – for a show with only 18 half-hour episodes it is still keeping us talking, a full thread and many re-watches later. Can you tell how much I love it?

If you think this might appeal, do watch it, then come back and talk to us. It would be lovely if more were to join our crew. But be aware it's a show that needs time. The 2nd lead doesn’t arrive until the end of episode 3 and that’s when the main story starts. You need to give it at least 4 episodes. It then took me several more to fully appreciate what I was watching but then I was hooked - and had to immediately watch it all over again. If you like Good Omens, What We Do in the Shadows, Ghosts or even Bridgerton, this might be the show for you.

(I’ve kept this spoiler free, but if you scroll down you will no doubt find many, so beware!)

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/telly_addicts/5008593-our-flag-means-death-its-utterly-brilliant-and-i-am-obsessed?reply=135294204

@TriceratopsRocks DJ said they were together now and he wouldn't be splitting them up again.

I listened to a podcast which talked about historical accuracy (not just the DJ school of historical inaccuracy, but the real thing) and thought that perhaps S3 would be working towards them both getting caught and hanged at the end! I utterly reject this - I don't think DJ would put us through that, or himself - he loves these characters - happy endings all the way.

@TriceratopsRocks @MrsJellybee The wedding thing: I want the wedding because I'm a words person and I want to hear them say beautiful, romantic, sentimental stuff to each other, both at the same time and in front of other people. Stede has written those lovely letters, and told Ed how he feels in the couch scene; Ed got his leathers back to save Stede and says I love you on the beach, but I want to hear him say more. I know the die was cast and they were always going to be together from 1.4 onwards, but I agree with @BillStickersIsInnocent that 1.9 isn't love in Stede's mind - he isn't quite there yet. For Ed I think it is, because the time gap from signing the register to 'You make Ed happy' suggests he's already been thinking about Stede in those terms, while also seeing it as a way out of piracy.

Pop pop - I didn't even spot him in Boy or WWDITS - but he's there in Wilderpeople too, although he fights Sam Neill not Taika.

@TriceratopsRocks Re WWDITS, I can't believe they wrote a proper script and then didn't actually show it to any of the actors! I mean, the whole thing is basically improv - it's a competely bonkers way to make a movie.

I wish they'd done a mix of improv and scripted, because when it's great, it's really great and the whole set up is fantastic, but there are some real lulls. I still really enjoyed it though for the world building and the silliness, and would watch it again. I think Taika's character is the most developed and he does a brilliant job of combining pathos/humour/endearingness and making us like a character who's just bled someone to death. I bet he prepared a lot of his lines as he does have some of the best.

@TriceratopsRocks I think what I need is desensitisation therapy

Does this hat help, or are you too far gone?

Oh @lizziesaurusx I'm waaaay too far gone 🤣

@BeBraveLittlePenguin Glad you're all enjoying the recs

Thank you from me too - I think it was you who got us all started on Constellationism?

necrophilia I ask you 🙄

I did a basic search by recently published and one of them was Izzy toilet training - I had to bleach my brain after just seeing that on the list. I think itredefines niche.

Also, I'll probably regret it but could someone link to Celestial Bodies so I can sob along too?

Any better? (This is a great interview btw)

Hehe. I actually do not currently want a cure. I'm still enjoying my obsession too much. Mad I know 😁 I'm currently watching Hunt for the Wildepeople (for the first time) and looking forward to his appearance.

@TriceratopsRocks Not mad at all, he's a delight. Have you watched some of the stand up from years ago - army days etc? Enjoy Wilderpeople - he's great, though not in it nearly long enough.

Just finished it. What a fantastic film, I really enjoyed it. Taika's priest was fun, and I loved Rhys. Currently enjoying Seabird credits, which has got me back into an Our Flag mood 😁. And yes I have watched Rhys' stand up. Probably not all of it yet, but a fair amount. Haven't watched any of his Big in Japan series yet though. Will get to that soonish, I'm sure.

@lizziesaurusx

I promise, you do not want to do this. But you asked.

archiveofourown.org/works/55032304?view_adult=true

It's so great, and he's a real high point! Seabird is gorgeous - the way it's used in Our Flag at that pivotal point for Ed is just perfect. I'm not sure at what stage it was chosen for the soundtrack, or by who, but the whole song has so much of Ed's story in it.

I'm sure the Ed/Frenchie conversation about the impossible bird was written first, but it's a perfect match for:
Lonely seabird, you've been away from land too long

Ed in 1.9-2.2:
I don't listen to the news no more
Like an unwound clock
You just don't seem to care
Sunsets, full moons (lots of them in OFMD at key points)
Don't turn you on
Like an untied dog
You just had to run (running = rage and pillage without end (I can't remember the exact words)

Ed at the dock in 1.9:
Suddenly, you're with me
I turn, and you're not there
Then in 1.10: Like a ghost, you haunt me

Ed and Stede finding each other again in 2.3 and 2.8:
This world isn't big enough
To keep me away from you
Oh, from you

Finally getting back to Stede:
Seabird, seabird, fly home

Sorry - bit of a diversion - I just love that song and it sums up a lot of Ed in a succinct and very beautiful way. A fair bit of it applies to Stede too.

And yes I have watched Rhys' stand up. Probably not all of it yet, but a fair amount. Haven't watched any of his Big in Japan series yet though.

He's extremely cute in some of the early stand up on youtube. I'd fogotten about Big in Japan - good reminder, thank you!

Sadder than the Tolling Bells?
There's also one that was recommended on here, can't remember the name, where Stede has a heart condition and Ed ends up sailing with his ghost - I properly sobbed at that one.

I don't think DJ would put us through that, or himself - he loves these characters - happy endings all the way.
@lizziesaurusx I agree. If Ed and Stede were 'hanged' it wouldn't be them and would have to be part of a fuckery. There is no way we are getting a sad ending for real (although Rhys in an interview did make the comment that he couldn't see it ending well for them. I am simply choosing to ignore that).

Re 1.9 (which was actually what I'd planned to watch tonight before Wildepeople happened). Yes, you are right that Stede doesn't see it as a wedding. He doesn't understand yet what he feels. Ed does though, which is why he's prepared to sign 10 years away for Stede. But all the imagery in that episode, it's showing us what's going to happen (but sadly we weren't getting it until S3. Drat!!). I needed an actual wedding for similar reasons to you. It's that public declaration. Public closeness. Them saying beautiful words to each other in front of their friends. That's what we needed.

Sadder than the Tolling Bells?
The Tolling Bells makes me cry, but has a happy ending.

@lizziesaurusx That's such a good observation about Seabird lyrics. Thank you for laying them out like that. I really love the song but hadn't put so many of the lyrics into context like that. What a show! I love that I am still learning things after all this time and all these re-watches.

@lizziesaurusx oh, wow! Thank you for dissecting The Seabird lyrics. I need to screenshot your analysis there. There’s a link between High on a Rocky Ledge and Ed pushing those wedding toppers out of the broken window too. Amazing show. When Stede calls Ed his mountain flower in Constellationism, that’s a link to the Edelweiss as well. I love all the intertextuality.

And I’m a words person too. I just don’t know why I can’t get on board properly with a wedding scene. I think their love is so unique it feels reductive. It would have to be something extra like pledging their love, falling into a volcano and being reborn as stars.

I want to talk about Frenchie for a minute…

I love his half-arsed sign of the cross in This is Happening when they meet Jim’s Nana. We then get his locking all the bad things in a little box in his head line in 2.1. He navigates Ed pretty well in 2.1 and 2.2 as well.

After Jim decides not to kill Archie, and pulls her up, meaning Ed will follow through with his threat, Frenchie is in the background dropping his head and frantically making the sign of the cross. Properly. He thinks he’s going to die. His little box has sprung open. It was a detail I only first noticed the other day and it blew me away.

I haven't seen Hunt for the Wilderpeople. Next on the list!

I don't think DD enjoyed camping that much. Let's hope for a far away football match one weekend or I'm going to have to resort to day time film watching and that's a slippery slope.

Regarding Frenchie - a great character who definitely could have had more of a backstory. I liked what the author did with him in the narrowboat fic. He was clearly the one running Swanye Nest's social media, right? He's also the first of the crew Ed meets and I liked the description of him from a stranger's POV. He hero worships Ed/Blackbeard a bit, doesn't he?

Oh I adore Frenchie. He's gentle, kind, supportive. Empathetic. He listens. And he stands up for people. I love his support of Ed in 1.5. He keeps quiet when the rest of the crew are talking about mutiny in the pilot. The supportive comments to Stede in the duel. Holding Izzy's hand when he's having his breakdown. But his despair when talking to Ed about the impossible bird... He's intelligent, quick thinking and utterly gorgeous in his Jimmy Hendrix lookalike get-up in the Kraken era. I read something once about how he speed-ran the normal first mate arc - promotion to mutiny and trying to kill his captain in a single day, not carrying out a single order he's given. I often think he's my favourite crew member.

I think the mountain flower is a reference to the bit of Ulysses that always got read at weddings back in my day rather than the SoM. It's Ed's yes you are yes that sparks him off I think.

"“I was a Flower of the mountain yes when I put the rose in my hair like the Andalusian girls used or shall I wear a red yes and how he kissed me under the Moorish wall and I thought well as well him as another and then I asked him with my eyes to ask again yes and then he asked me would I yes to say yes my mountain flower and first I put my arms around him yes and drew him down to me so he could feel my breasts all perfume yes and his heart was going like mad and yes I said yes I will Yes.”

Kate Bush did a song version, which is very season 2

Thus have I had thee. Yep, made me howl.

And Labyrinth Skin - the soldier story there absolutely caught in my throat.

@BeBraveLittlePenguin I hadn’t linked Ed’s ‘yes’ speech to Ulysses. Oh wow. I love that part. It’s my favourite moment so far.

@TriceratopsRocks @MrsJellybee Seabird again, sorry, as I forgot about verse 1:
There's a road I know I must go
Even though I tell myself that road is closed
So I think Ed knows that he has to go down the road of stopping being Blackbeard and finding some sort of healing/rehabilitation. He tells himself that road is closed because he’s frightened and because, until Stede, he didn’t have the means to know how to approach making these changes. Stede enables him to access a whole part of himself that he couldn’t before and helps to make feel complete. I love that Stede is land for Ed, where he can settle and be safe, like the impossible bird finding out that in fact it can be happy on land too. The whole song could have been written for Ed.

The music choices in this show are just so clever. High on A Rocky Lodge is about the struggle to follow your dream which might look strange to others (because dying to grow next to a flower is pretty weird). But it’s really about making a sacrifice to have the life you want. Ed and Stede have to ‘die’ to their old lives before they can grow and become the people they feel they need to be – Ed metaphorically in throwing leathers away, renouncing (for a bit) being a fearsome pirate then retiring to the inn; Stede literally faking his own death so he can be free to return to Ed and then giving up the piracy he thought he wanted all along because what he really wanted was to be loved. The brilliant thing about this is that it’s placed at the end of the first episode when we still think it’s silly pirate show, but the signs of what it really is are in this song. I feel so much love and compassion for Stede watching that bit now and knowing what’s in store for him: he’s going to have to go through so much pain, but he’ll end up with more than he could ever have imagined.

@TriceratopsRocks Rhys in an interview did make the comment that he couldn't see it ending well for them

NOOOOOOOO!!! How could he? Hopefully just in jest. He would only ever want the best for Stede.

@TriceratopsRocks It's that public declaration. Public closeness. Them saying beautiful words to each other in front of their friends. That's what we needed.

I also wanted it because I wanted to see middle aged people, who look middle aged, getting a happy ending (or new beginning) and celebrating everything they have to look forward to, in each other, in the community they've found/created, and in finding the freedom to be themselves. In sometimes tired and beleaguered middle age, I want to see examples of that publicly celebrated. I also wanted to see middle aged gay men getting a happy ending in a world where coming out/homophobia simply hasn't been part of the story - their sexuality hasn't been the issue that either of them angsted over, it just is - and that's really refreshing.

@MrsJellybee It would have to be something extra like pledging their love, falling into a volcano and being reborn as stars

That I would love to see! Reborn as mermaids, maybe?

That's the one! Thank you for the recommendation. It's one of the first ones I read (a whole three weeks or so ago) and that last chapter has really stayed with me - beautifully written. I really don't like to think of one of them leaving the other alone though.

@lizziesaurusx Really lovely analysis of the lyrics. I must read them properly. That’s the thing about Stede. He doesn’t ‘do something to [Ed’s] brain’ or change Ed. He offers a safe space for Ed to be himself. That part he has denied himself all his life. Stede is always pausing, waiting, seeking permission. Rather than judging, dictating, telling… Ed can breathe. I love that Stede says ‘I know… I know that.’ To Ed’s ‘I love you… I love you.’ Not only does he continue to respect the boundary (I think he’s safe to say it now), but it’s reassuring. It means Ed can have one of his wobbles and come back. And he will. But Stede knows he loves him. He doesn’t have to prove it every second. He can break, fall apart, return. Just knowing he can do that and Stede doesn’t doubt his love means Ed might heal somewhat.

High on a Rocky Ledge…
“You will begin to grow in snow beside the one
You have waited for to be mated with"

Stede is waiting for his mate at the end of episode 1… he’s on his way Stede! He’ll soon be stalking you across the Caribbean seas and fighting the Spanish Navy to meet you! And boy, have they both waited and earned each other.

And yes to mermaids! 🧜‍♂️🧜I’ve said before Ed is The Little Mermaid, leaving sea for land, willingly giving up a huge part of his identity only to be betrayed in love. But then love saves him in the shape of Merstede, mirroring and ‘seeing’ Ed.

I leave you with a piano in the corner! There’s an upended piano left in Stede’s cabin at the end of 1.10! 🎹

Edward's. Yes I am.
<shivers>