Our Flag Means Death: Thread 2. Still utterly brilliant and we are still obsessed!

[TriceratopsRocks]

Ahoy there mateys! Hop aboard our ‘safe space ship’ thread 2, where we can continue to wax lyrical about our favourite show.

If you haven’t yet seen Our Flag Means Death, what are you waiting for? Do go watch it (on BBC iPlayer) and then come back here and join us.

You may have heard that this is a comedy about pirates and think that's not for you. But it’s actually about self-discovery, healing and found-family with a love story at its heart. It does begin as a sort of pirate workplace comedy, but in episode 4 the tone changes and that’s where the main story really starts. The joint leads are both damaged by abusive backgrounds and think they want what the other has. The show is about their healing and their respective journeys. It’s tender, romantic, funny, emotionally intelligent and utterly refreshing. It subverts genre expectations. There is comedy, absurdity and a good amount of heartbreak and despair - sometimes in the same scene! The acting is outstanding (Taika Waititi and Rhys Darby especially). But the writing, music, costumes, sets, the sheer attention to detail – for a show with only 18 half-hour episodes it is still keeping us talking, a full thread and many re-watches later. Can you tell how much I love it?

If you think this might appeal, do watch it, then come back and talk to us. It would be lovely if more were to join our crew. But be aware it's a show that needs time. The 2nd lead doesn’t arrive until the end of episode 3 and that’s when the main story starts. You need to give it at least 4 episodes. It then took me several more to fully appreciate what I was watching but then I was hooked - and had to immediately watch it all over again. If you like Good Omens, What We Do in the Shadows, Ghosts or even Bridgerton, this might be the show for you.

(I’ve kept this spoiler free, but if you scroll down you will no doubt find many, so beware!)

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/telly_addicts/5008593-our-flag-means-death-its-utterly-brilliant-and-i-am-obsessed?reply=135294204

@TriceratopsRocks that list is good! But they forgot "while looking extremely stylish"!

Just watched S2.04 with DH. I'm never going to stop laughing at Ed hiding under the blanket.

Every ‘Ed’ has a hidey moment. BB in the bathtub under Stede’s dressing gown battle jacket, EmoEd in the blanket fort, KrakenEd in Stede’s bed nook, undeadEd under the blanket. Poor Ed. Even running-away-fisherman-Ed is a metaphorical hiding.

I love Ed in the couch scene in 2.4. When Stede tries to say he loves him, and then respects Ed’s boundaries and turns it into ‘I love everything about you’, Ed grunts and looks forward. Stede pauses (so instinctive, Stede!) and Ed turns his head towards him, then turns to almost fully look at him. It reminds me of the head movement in 1.9 after the ‘you’. It’s shy and fearful, but full of wanting. Ed wants Stede to keep talking despite his huffy demeanour. He reminds me of my much-missed Yorkshire Terrier. If you gave him a treat, he would watch you out of the corner of his eye to see if there was any more… subtle, cool, not overplaying his hand. Ed is doing that here. Pretending to be indifferent whilst he is begging for more crumbs of love from Stede. Stede just wants to feed him the entire pie, but Ed’s afraid he’ll choke.

I think Ed under the blanket is the scene I have watched most often. I absolutely love it! It's both funny and touching.

@TriceratopsRocks That list! No-one can tell me Stede Bonnet isn’t as sexy as hell.

I love how we can see Ed's forgiven him ages before Ed realises it himself!

I feel slightly self-conscious sometimes about how much I love this show, but it's just so good at showing how you can fall in love with someone because they're kind to you. It goes both ways as well - Ed's pretty consistently kind to Stede from the off and when he's hurt and lashes out he's open about it. I love the emotional honesty in it.

@TriceratopsRocks I think on Mumsnet we see a lot of posts that could well have been written by Mary!

Definitely - I'm pretty sure Stede wasn't sharing the mental load, and as for his 'hobby'...

He definitely spends ages in the bathroom. He’s obviously not on his phone, but instead is reading his monthly Moths and Other Winged Insects pamphlets.

@Phineyj That was 'Love Led Us Here', I think? I did like the Ed/Mary scenes. I liked all of it in fact except the overly realistic infectious diseases.

It was! I put a link in my post in case anyone was tempted to have a look. I liked the scenes with Lucius.

We should probably not go there with the Bonnet plantation inevitably being worked by slaves, eh?

I put up a link earlier on this thread, I think, to an episode of a podcast called Imaginary Worlds which looks at the historical context and they touch on that, and on the accuracy of the diversity on board Revenge. While Stede paying a salary to his crew may have been radical, his fortune being built on enslaved people (he inherited 94 slaves) is depressingly predicable. So yes, I agree and decided not to go there, any more than I want to connect the real Blackbeard with Ed - I don't think anyone watches this for historical accuracy, thankfully.

That list of Stede's achievements is excellent @TriceratopsRocks It's so clever how he comes across at first as a bumbling fish out of water, because we're falling into the trap of judging him by the expectations of how a ruthless pirate will behave. But I agree with you all that his emotional intelligence is his superpower – he’s the only one that could have overpowered Ned Low and I love how Ed just knows this, with total confidence – ‘Stede’s got this’. Another of my favourite bits is in Act of Grace, where not just Ed but the whole crew come together to save him – the expression of delight on his face when they say ‘as a crew’ - maybe for the first time, he really feels loved and valued. Of course Chauncey can’t begin to understand why they’re desperate to save him because he just sees him like Izzy does, as a nothing, judged by the ideals of toxic masculinity.

On instinct. @MrsJellybee his emotional intelligence includes his assessment of people and his willingness to see the good in them and that's never truer than in his instincts about Ed. He can see the good in him right from the very start – his gut instinct is not to be scared of him (bizarre when you think about it – waking up wounded with a leather-clad pirate sitting on your bed). Even when he finds out he’s Blackbeard, he doesn’t waver and it's like he always feels safe with him – even when he’s just found out in 1.6 that Ed was planning to kill him, or when he has to intervene in 1.5 to stop Ed shooting the people in the party, he’s not scared. In S2 his gut feeling also tells him that Ed won’t kill him despite the havoc that he’s wreaking elsewhere – he’s right to trust that the good is still there in Ed, although his blind spot about Ed’s cruelty and destructiveness does mean that his lack of empathy with Lucius stands out.

Stede grows so much during the show and although he becomes a ‘better’ pirate and develops a real charisma, he never loses that fundamental sweetness. Apart from briefly in ‘Man on Fire’ he doesn’t let his more outwardly successful pirating go to his head. The endearing thing is that I don’t think he actually knows how strong he is in this area – maybe because it’s been ingrained in him all his life that these aren’t the skills to value.

@lizziesaurusx lovely observations on Stede's instincts regarding Ed. He knows Ed isn't going to kill him. Stede also has great instincts knowing how to handle Ed. No unsolicited touching. Consent. Kindness. Creativity. Listening. Understanding.

The 'Man on Fire' incident is horrid and so not Stede. But contextually I understand how it happens. One thing I noticed the other day was Bloodbucket Bill who is next to Stede on the steps in 2.7. He is a man considerably older than Stede wearing a blooded apron. He represents Stede's father. Stede is still that wounded little boy who wants to impress his Dad.

And yes to the Chauncey's observation. Why do they all - including BB - show such loyalty to this nothing?

There's a line in Edward II I think it is. I'm quoting from memory. 'Why do you love that which the world doth despise?' Answer: 'Because he loves me more than all the world'.

@MrsJellybee Stede always trusts that Ed will be at his best, not his worst and he tries to make him feel better about himself. He does the same with the crew, encouraging their non-piratey side – talking it through, providing a games room, bedtime stories. I love that he encourages their creativity, flying all the flags they make so it’s clear that everyone’s contribution is valued. Obviously not so great on the health care/scurvy though. The Badmintons and Izzy’s competitive worldview doesn’t have space for understanding why you'd even want to make people feel good about themselves.

Man on Fire is so not Stede and I think it’s partly a casualty of the rushedness of the last two episodes. There’s so much plot and so much Stede/Ed relationship stuff to fit in and not nearly enough time to explore that incident and the context of Stede’s sudden rise to fame convincingly. He needs to taste the thrill of being a feted pirate but also reject that in favour of life with Ed but it's as if it's done in shorthand to squeeze it all in.

Beautiful quote from Edward II. I saw it in Stratford in 1990 on a school trip, with Simon Russell Beale as Edward II and Ciaran Hinds as Mortimer, though I don't remember much about it.

@lizziesaurusx I saw Edward II mid-90s on an A level trip. No idea where it was - possibly Cheltenham’s Everyman - or who was in it. Apparently Eddie Izzard did a good interpretation.

Edward, Gaveston, Mortimer…. Edward, Stede, Izzie…. 🤔

What wonderful posts @lizziesaurusx and @MrsJellybee. And thank you for posting that pic, Lizzie, it's one of my favourite moments - a real validation of who he is from people wholeheartedly supporting him.

Stede always trusts that Ed will be at his best, not his worst and he tries to make him feel better about himself. He does the same with the crew...

This is what I love about Stede. Because he's so open and honest, he believes people. He sees the best in them and this in turn makes them feel better about themselves. It's a powerful feeling to inspire. Yes he's naive, but it makes others feel valued, which gradually earns him real loyalty - curiously combined with the urge not to disappoint him because it'd be like kicking an innocent little puppy!

I totally agree about Man on Fire. The last 2 episodes both feel rushed, but this is the one that suffers most. He has his wildest dreams come true ("I'm the greatest pirate that ever lived!") and the novelty of being celebrated - only to be crushed as Ed leaves him and he believes he's also losing the crew to Zheng. His reaction is understandable, but it's also too close to that blissful morning and lunch with Ed. As is Ed leaving as quickly as he does. I'm a lot happier with those episodes now I feel like I understand what's going on, but the first time I was disappointed because I didn't get all the nuance, and it just felt so wrong.

I feel like I've missed out - I have never seen Edward II.

In praise of Frenchie! I'm going to keep posting here to help me through my latest rewatch. Othewise I get sidetracked, start jumping about and never actually get to the end. Or I go to the end and miss some in the middle. Anyway, I was still thinking about Frenchie from 1.3 and tonight I watched 1.5. He's so great here I thought he deserved a special mention.

In 1.3 I love his conversation in Stede's cabin. He was giving 'scribing' a good go, confidently saying he's getting it all despite producing only doodles (which are ace, although i'm not sure why one stick man has a brick on his head)! And I adore Stede's reaction. But we see Frenchie being helpful, showing confidence and a bit of swagger. It ties wonderfully into 1.5 where he is so dashing in his fine suit and the swagger is in full flow as he scams the aristocracy. But the bit that stood out tonight was how supportive he was of both Stede and Ed at the party. Stede was feeling uncomfortable, a bit left out and made fun of so he's done his usual and run away. But Frenchie is there, comforting and reassuring him. I find it really touching. Then Ed arrives and it's Frenchie who immediately asks if he's ok, and "what have they done to you, man?". He's now just as supportive to Ed ("Oh they're such dicks about spoons"). He's definitely a favourite crew member of mine.

The one thing that bugs me about this episode is that when they are leaving the party boat, Olu and Frenchie are rowing the wrong way! I know it will have been done for camera angles, but you don't row forwards - it's just wrong!

Oh, and you're getting a bonus Jeff pic too😍

@TriceratopsRocks Edward II is brutal. Imagine Ed and Stede’s relationship ending in the worst way possible. Good play. Marlowe.

https://www.tumblr.com/celluloidbroomcloset/751692221562175489/stedes-little-face-when-he-says-the-next?source=share

Loving the observations here.

If only the real life Edward or Gaveston had had some of Stede's emotional intelligence or Ed's charisma and their willingness to step away from a world of competitive masculinity, perhaps things could have been very different. (This is based on my very hazy memories of the play. I guess a gay relationship was never going to get a happy ending in the 1590s, plus Malowe couldn't rewrite history.) The ending is gruesome enough to make kraken Ed look quite chilled.

I only remembered who was in it (more than I remember the plot!) because it was just when Simon Russell Beale was about to become famous, and because Ciaran Hinds popped up again in that lovely adaptation of Persuasion not long after.

@MrsJellybee Loving the observations here.

So do we think that Ed is really fully aware of his feelings for Stede that early on? I know it's after YWFTW and the bathtub scene, but still? It's before Lucius intervenes.

It’s all open to interpretation. Some say love at first sight, some the first YWFTW. Some Lucius. Some ‘never left’. There’s an argument for it not being fully realised until Act of Grace. I think most of the above commentary is what’s going on at a subconscious level for Ed. But I do think the whole ‘going off for the next adventure’ is Ed fishing -consciously or unconsciously- for Stede to ask him to stay. I think Ed knows he loves likes Stede, but can’t read Stede. Stede is seducing Ed without knowing that that is what he is doing. Lucius helps Ed realise the depth of his feelings and clarifies that Stede feels the same.

I do think Ed is somewhat aware of how he feels here, but is too afraid and confused to fully realise it.

There’s a gorgeous phrase in Pride and Prejudice via Charlotte Lucas: ‘There are few of us who are secure enough to be within love without proper encouragement’. Lucius supplies that for Ed later on.

Probably misplaced therapy speak but I often think of Stede operating from a place of unconditional positive regard. Yes Ed, you’ve blown off Izzy’s leg, made the crew fight to the death, whipped your own balls, put twine on my breakfast AND taken a bite out of my toast, but I still absolutely adore you. Stede creates a sense of safety where Ed can be at his best, more of the time.

It doesn’t always follow (I.e the critical why would you after the spoon debacle at the posh party), but I think generally Stede does see the best in people and glosses over the bad stuff. Quite a lot of glossing at times to be fair.

Yes 100% about the safety - I don’t think Ed really feels judged by Stede, even when he arguably should – so much extensive glossing over Ed’s actions in 2.1 and 2.2. Though I think the twine and the toast bite are endearing! He gives Ed the space to be gentle, tender, vulnerable.

If it’s not much too simplistic a question, what, in therapy speak, unconsciously motivates or leads someone to adopt that position of unconditional positive regard? It’s not as if Stede has really had any positive reinforcement himself in his life up to then, and we get a glimpse of how unnurturing his childhood is.

@lizziesaurusx Gaveston is what we would have got in ofmd if they’d cast anyone other than Rhys, I think. Nightmare.

Ciaran Hinds popped up again in that lovely adaptation of Persuasion not long after. My favourite adaptation, and the best. And I say that as someone who wants to bite Rupert Penry-Jones in the later adaption. But Ciaran is definitely the best Captain Wentworth. Amanda Root is amazing too.

(Sorry, this is rather off-topic. As you were…)

@lizziesaurusx good question, because unconditional positive regard is about valuing the innate worth of a human being, regardless of what they do or don’t do. And in western societies masculinity, productivity, achievement and power is highly valued. As you say Stede was judged against these values and was found wanting. He wouldn’t have had a template for unconditional positive regard. I’m not sure many of us do. So maybe a positive choice based on how he would like to be treated? He’s unique in many ways.

So maybe a positive choice based on how he would like to be treated? He’s unique in many ways.
I think this is it. He reacts strongly when people put others down. To me it's because he remembers what it was like to be treated badly and wants to stop it happening to others - eg he's really cross with Pete in 1.2, when Pete calls Olu 'Babyface'. He turns instantly and shouts "Hey!" at Pete. It's a callback to his 'Baby Bonnet' nickname and a rare moment of him snapping at someone. I think the it's all part of the same thing though - he respects people's opinions because he wasn't respected himself.