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Telly addicts

Has Doctor Who always been this amateur?

130 replies

user09876543 · 14/05/2024 13:21

I'm assuming it isn't doing very well since the BBC is plugging it massively but has it always been this poor? I haven't watched since Christopher Eccleston but thought I'd give it a go. It's like watching a bad village Am Dram performance. Am I missing something? Is this intentionally part of it now?

OP posts:
WearyAuldWumman · 16/05/2024 01:59

Capaldi had his 'sonic' dark glasses, didn't he?

MistyGreenAndBlue · 16/05/2024 02:01

StarsHideYourFir3s · 15/05/2024 12:33

Tennant's Doctor wore glasses a few times but it wasn't a part of the costume that stayed on all the time

Capaldi's Doctor had sonic shades. Does that count?

WearyAuldWumman · 16/05/2024 02:03

IncompleteSenten · 15/05/2024 12:17

Is ruby River song or her daughter? Or is that way too obvious to be possible? Or one of the doctor's actual species maybe?

I wondered if Mrs flood was going to turn out to be river song but that would be insultingly lazy of them re the obvious name, plus how would they unkill her for her to regenerate?

I think I think too much about what is just supposed to be a fun and silly little TV show 🤣

Mind you, I remember when some fans suggested a River/Pond connection and were mocked.

MistyGreenAndBlue · 16/05/2024 02:08

beguilingeyes · 15/05/2024 12:27

I've been watching since the late 60s. Tom Baker was my Doctor. I've mostly loved the re-boot. I'd long been an Eccleston fan (DCI Bilborough in Cracker...sob) so I loved him and thought Billie was a revelation .
I'm the only person I know who hated Tennant...too hyper and 'look at me'. Matt Smith is probably my favourite Doctor now...he was amazing. Capaldi was ok (although agree about awful Clara) and also about Jodie's writing. Chibnal...say no more.
I was thrilled about RTDs return, although bloody Tennant again and I like Ncuti but so far I'm not feeling it. I really want it to work though so I'm sticking with it.
Not sure about her though.

Tennant was just ok. But he's too fond of "chewing the scenery". That's not acting.

I liked Clara though. Much preferred her to Amy who was more a collection of stereotypes than an actual character. And her and Rory were just nauseating by the end.

TempestTost · 16/05/2024 02:22

I rather liked Clara when she was just being normal and it wasn't all about her.

I thought the scripts really started to decline in Matt Smith's era. Though I would say, if you look carefully, some of the bad things really started under Tennant. It is a bit like Got in that - two or three really strong seasons, one or two where it's pretty great but there are some tendencies to over-complication and making everything too connected, and occasionally just a bit up its own arse - the Matt Smith era with a real mix, all these problems started to become more and more exaggerated and overtake the stories. Carpaldi has some good stories but I had to stop watching during his era, though I loved him as the doctor, because aside from the other issues the dialogue became so, so, bad in many episodes.

What I find weird is the complaints of fans are pretty consistent. Too much complication and relying on supposedly high stakes; too much politics and treating the audience like they need to be educated; bad dialogue. All they need to do is tone that shit down and write some great stories.

But it's like they can't help themselves.

beguilingeyes · 16/05/2024 07:05

Clara was just too smug for me. There was no sense of wonder or joy, it was just snark. Shs should have gone when Danny died.
I really loved Bill and felt she was really short-changed by only getting one season. Pearl Mackie was amazing.

AprilPoisson · 16/05/2024 09:28

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 15/05/2024 23:02

He may well be a great stage actor but he’s not a great TV actor. Other than Dr Who, his only big hit has been Broadchurch, in which he played essentially the same character (albeit with just the one heart…) in a different setting.

But I wasn’t making the point to slag off DT, but as a comment on how the scripts make or break a Dr Who.

Nah, bullshit
There she goes - sublime performance
Casanova - charisma
Good omens - a bit Bill Nighy but bafta nominated
Deadwater Fell - evil
Inside man - desperate
Blackpool - excellent
Secret Smile - stalker
Recovery - sublime performance of man with personality change/brain damage
Des - psychotic

He's done lots of great telly

DerekFaker · 16/05/2024 09:49

I don't really rate Tennant either. Never understood the hype about him. And he definitely outstayed his welcome as the Doctor, imo. And the companions falling in love with him - absolutely no need! (Donna was a breath of fresh air for me.)

Matt Smith is my favourite New Who.

I didn't watch Space Babies and doubt I will now. But the second episode - yeesh! It was like a bad pantomine. What the HELL.

I like Ncuti as well, but have a feeling he's going to be let down badly by awful scripts and storylines.

Chersfrozenface · 16/05/2024 10:23

Tennant is always Tennant.

Unlike Michael Sheen (his bestie) or Timothy Spall or Toby Jones.

SoupChicken · 16/05/2024 10:27

I’ve only watched all of the Christopher Ecclestone ones, I remember really enjoying them but I’m just not a fan of David Tenant.

TempestTost · 16/05/2024 10:34

Chersfrozenface · 16/05/2024 10:23

Tennant is always Tennant.

Unlike Michael Sheen (his bestie) or Timothy Spall or Toby Jones.

I think that's fair.

I can't decide about Ncuti. He so beautiful I find myself just looking at him. I know I'm not really making a rational assessment.

I just don't want another companion who is inherently special, or another save all space and time series.

With the inherently special thing - I watched an interesting video on YouTube making the argument that there has been a big flip in the way characters are presented, where instead of starting from being regularly incompetent like most people, and through some sort of process becoming great, they just start great. He cited Rey from Star Wars and Mulan in the new version of the film as examples, they just seemed to be amazing and better than everyone else without any training or work. IIRC, he was suggesting that this might be connected to an attempt to create these "strong female" types, where they seem to be unwilling to write them as having to build themselves up. They're only oppressed by others, not their own limitations, and so when they try and break out, it's all easy peasy.

I don't know about that, but since I watched it, I have noticed a real tendency toward that. Dr Who kind of fits in - Rose and even Martha were both really normal, and grew in many ways. After that there is a lot more of the companions being differernt and special from the get-go, even if it's a mystery of some kind.

TempestTost · 16/05/2024 10:36

FWIW I think Eccelston was the best by a long shot, and then PC, when he had a reasonable script.

TripleDaisySummer · 16/05/2024 10:46

With the inherently special thing - I watched an interesting video on YouTube making the argument that there has been a big flip in the way characters are presented, where instead of starting from being regularly incompetent like most people, and through some sort of process becoming great, they just start great. He cited Rey from Star Wars and Mulan in the new version of the film as examples, they just seemed to be amazing and better than everyone else without any training or work. IIRC, he was suggesting that this might be connected to an attempt to create these "strong female" types, where they seem to be unwilling to write them as having to build themselves up. They're only oppressed by others, not their own limitations, and so when they try and break out, it's all easy peasy.

It's so common it's often called the girlboss' trope now.

It's supposed to be positive but is often cite as bad writing - inability to write females or result of so much nepotism in writing rooms and industry these days so the striving part is missed as it's not part of their lives.

DH favorite Pixar movie ending is Monsters University prequel to Monster inc because at the end the were not forgiven there were consequences for them serious one they were kicked out of uni - they had to pick themselves up and work their way up the industry starting at the bottom. He thinks that's such a powerful message - he works in HE so deal with increasing numbers of there were consequences for them don't seem to think consequences should apply to them.

DerekFaker · 16/05/2024 10:55

Chersfrozenface · 16/05/2024 10:23

Tennant is always Tennant.

Unlike Michael Sheen (his bestie) or Timothy Spall or Toby Jones.

Yep, that's exactly it.

CampervanKween · 16/05/2024 12:11

My kids also loved Eccleston, Tennant, Smith and Capaldi and completely lost interest during Jody's era.

We are rewatching them from the start at the moment in our caravan. Introducing our youngest to them. Dont think we will bother with this new series having read all the reviews 🙄

NewspaperTaxis · 16/05/2024 12:28

TempestTost · 16/05/2024 10:34

I think that's fair.

I can't decide about Ncuti. He so beautiful I find myself just looking at him. I know I'm not really making a rational assessment.

I just don't want another companion who is inherently special, or another save all space and time series.

With the inherently special thing - I watched an interesting video on YouTube making the argument that there has been a big flip in the way characters are presented, where instead of starting from being regularly incompetent like most people, and through some sort of process becoming great, they just start great. He cited Rey from Star Wars and Mulan in the new version of the film as examples, they just seemed to be amazing and better than everyone else without any training or work. IIRC, he was suggesting that this might be connected to an attempt to create these "strong female" types, where they seem to be unwilling to write them as having to build themselves up. They're only oppressed by others, not their own limitations, and so when they try and break out, it's all easy peasy.

I don't know about that, but since I watched it, I have noticed a real tendency toward that. Dr Who kind of fits in - Rose and even Martha were both really normal, and grew in many ways. After that there is a lot more of the companions being differernt and special from the get-go, even if it's a mystery of some kind.

This is interesting - in fact this whole thread I find interesting. I'm a James Bond fan and it's intriguing to see the same kind of discontent and annoyance thrashed out re another subject as you see on a Bond forum. Of course, you can't go back, and there's that suspicion that the makers are trying to make things differently so they can claim it's a success, and all their own. That said, they also seem wedded to the past a bit, or the heritage of the thing, in case that doesn't quite work.

Past adventures had a broadly narcissistic male lead that the audience are meant to get behind so that when he's a success, the individual feels they can claim it as their own! It's the reason for maverick cops - if the crime were solved by team work then the acclaim would have to be shared! That said, there often is a team there, but they're actually enablers, allowing the lead to shine. See Q and his gadgets in the Bond films - they're there to prop Bond up, Q gets no acclaim, usually only disparagement. Even M most likely is just there to explain the mission and hand over the plane tickets.

But times change. Now, if you try to have a female equal to Bond, it doesn't always work because a) It looks contrived and b) Two indestructible heroes in a film upsets the balance, it can look implausible. But c) is that it breaks the formula I outlined in the previous paragraph. It also breaks the yin and yang of an onscreen partnership. Holmes had his Watson, but if Watson were a woman and therefore had to be as smart as Holmes, well, it could work but it breaks the dynamic. I suppose one could be the muscle, the other the brains.
Personally as a middle-aged man I have long gone off the old tradition of the know-all bloke everyone looks up to, and the James Bond series has tried to address that, albeit imo not very happily. Most action films today are about teamwork - to some extent Top Gun: Maverick emphasises that and certainly I think the Avengers films do.
But applying themes of equality and teamwork to something like James Bond and Doctor Who is a tricky business, you run the risk of jeopardising the very qualities that made them a success. That said, I do recall early William Hartnell episodes emphasising his unappealing crochety side, so perhaps audiences were meant to identify with the companions more. Now that seems a bit of a risk, they want the grandstanding look-at-me Doctor.

beguilingeyes · 16/05/2024 12:35

I don't think we should give up on it entirely until we've seen Moffats episode next week. He's the guy who gave us the Weeping Angels and 'are you my mummy '.
I wish they'd get Richard Curtis to write another one. That Van Gogh episode is soooo special.

billyt · 16/05/2024 12:42

Big Dr Who fan from the 60's on. Not a fan of McCoy or Baker but still watched. Enjoyed the reboot with Ecclestone. Was happy with Smith, Tennant, Capaldi.

Didn't even give Whittaker a go as it's woke BBC fucking about. And then to tick two more woke boxes with the latest attempt?

No thanks.

senua · 16/05/2024 12:48

I shouldn't really contribute to this thread because I don't watch much Dr Who. I try, every now and then, but get fed up of them gabbling. When the Doctor comes out with the amazing Save The Planet thing, it's always said at high speed in a "never mind what I'm actually saying, just listen to how fast I can talk" way. They all do it so it is obviously a command from on high. But I would like a considered, intelligent, slower Doctor occasionally.
Oh, and non-preachy ofc but I know that that is asking too much of them; they can't help themselves.Hmm

BabyShaark · 16/05/2024 13:42

Used to be a big fan. Eccleston and Tennant. Matt Smith was kinda ok but the stories became too convoluted in the end. Didn’t watch Capaldi much (for that reason).

I didn’t like the idea of a female Doctor, but gave Whittaker the benefit of the doubt - waste of time. Not watched it since. Don’t get me wrong, I’d love the idea of a female Timelord, just don’t mess with an established character, give her her own show.

But given all the stuff I’ve read here I’m keen to watch the latest two episodes just to see if they were really as bad as people say.

I’ll be back with my verdict 😂

Engaea · 16/05/2024 13:46

@NewspaperTaxis hard disagree on your yin/yang theory. Why do you need a female Watson? Why not a female Holmes? Why "two indestructible heroes" in a movie by creating a "female equal to Bond", why not just a female Bond?

@TempestTost it's lazy thinking to blame lazy writing on the presence of female characters.

@MissLucyEyelesbarrow I don't agree at all....his Broadchurch character was quite a sad and flat person, nothing like Dr Who imo. In Jessica Jones he was a fantastic villain. Good Omens was a huge hit and he was good in that, though I have a lot of issues with it as an adaptation.

DW hasn't been good since Smith in my opinion. The Smith episodes are my favourites because I like the longer, complex arcs of the stories, and Amy is my fave companion, but almost everybody I know disagrees with me 😂I love Peter Capaldi but not as the Dr sadly, and same with Jodie Whittaker. The writing just sucked, mostly. I haven't watched any Ncuti Gatwa, no reflection on him but they really lost me with Capaldi and Whittaker and I got tired of being disappointed.

Engaea · 16/05/2024 13:47

@BabyShaark you're talking about a character who can reincarnate in totally different bodies, it's not "messing with the character" to change their sex, it's one of hundreds of mutable characteristics in the case of a time lord.

CampervanKween · 16/05/2024 13:49

Oooh a female timelord spin-off show would be amazing. Someone as odd and individual as Helena Bonham Carter would be my choice.

I loved John Sims as the master, and loved Missy too. Great quirky acting and scripts.

It wasn't the fact of a female Dr Who that was the problem for me. It was that the writing was terrible and I didn't think much of the way she acted.

TripleDaisySummer · 16/05/2024 13:53

I'd have liked a spin off Paternoster Gang series - the female silurian her wife and Strax doing Victorian/sci-fi sleuthing.

I used to think Whittaker was let down by the scripts but then saw other actors doing so much more with equally poor writing - I never felt she "got" the part.

NewspaperTaxis · 16/05/2024 14:24

Engaea · 16/05/2024 13:46

@NewspaperTaxis hard disagree on your yin/yang theory. Why do you need a female Watson? Why not a female Holmes? Why "two indestructible heroes" in a movie by creating a "female equal to Bond", why not just a female Bond?

@TempestTost it's lazy thinking to blame lazy writing on the presence of female characters.

@MissLucyEyelesbarrow I don't agree at all....his Broadchurch character was quite a sad and flat person, nothing like Dr Who imo. In Jessica Jones he was a fantastic villain. Good Omens was a huge hit and he was good in that, though I have a lot of issues with it as an adaptation.

DW hasn't been good since Smith in my opinion. The Smith episodes are my favourites because I like the longer, complex arcs of the stories, and Amy is my fave companion, but almost everybody I know disagrees with me 😂I love Peter Capaldi but not as the Dr sadly, and same with Jodie Whittaker. The writing just sucked, mostly. I haven't watched any Ncuti Gatwa, no reflection on him but they really lost me with Capaldi and Whittaker and I got tired of being disappointed.

Yep, you could have a female Holmes or similar. My point is, you might still need to employ a Yin Yang thing where you have a Watson who plays second fiddle (no pun intended) - but, if so-called political correctness or woke comes into play - an 'equal' to Holmes, and that's when it's not Yin Yang anymore. It depends to what extent you are meant to identify and want to be the lead.

I don't know, a kind of Holmes/Watson dynamic could work with Saunders and French, in that order.

Not sure I got my point across with regard to a 'female Bond'. My point was about the male Bond - if he is in a movie, and they introduce a woman spy that's his love interest, then now she would always have to be presented as his equal or it's sexist. That's okay - and better than the gormless Mary Goodnight type you might get - but it alters the dynamic like a house of cards. Have a female Bond - or similar female spy - that's a different issue. Doesn't always work - I think Salt was an attempt, and I enjoyed Lucy, not really spy stuff but exciting all the same.

It's good to have a Who companion who is not a mere cypher nodding along quietly and there to provide a sounding board exposition but the more gabby and assertive they get, the better the writing has to be if they are not both talking over each other.

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