Eurovision 2024

[RunningAndSinging]

Anyone interested in the build up this year? I have been more aware this year as the songs are announced. I like Croatia, Ireland and Finland. Dizzy is hopefully going to do well which makes it exciting - Olli Alexander should be good performing live and he is well known in Europe.

Just reading about the controversy with Israel’s entry and I see that Iceland might send a Palastinian singer.

Ukraine have been the favourites for a while but Croatia is just ahead of them now.

Have anyone else besides the Dutch confirmed that there indeed was an agreement not to film? Possible that the Dutch delegation made such a request but EBU said no, sorry. contract says everyone gets filmed. If there are different definitions of physical altercations there might also be different definitions of “contract “

I agree about 'not physical' when there is a broken phone but we'll see.

Meanwhile the Dutch really are angry about this.

This is from Dutch TV. Really funny Europapa parody (Contains swearing) with English subtitles

https://twitter.com/SICKPRETTYMlND/status/1789810989686243762?t=dOSl9BecG2N5KKo6iKKgbQ&s=19

Dutch Newspaper

I have to say that this is not going to help tensions that already exist in the several European countries

"This comes after RTP confirmed the Portuguese delegation saw the Israeli team harassing other contestants and delegations during the week."

The Portuguese delegation claim they saw, surely? And these are the people who say "RTP’s President revealed that the EBU told them iolanda’s video was delayed because “your competitor has pro-Palestine motifs painted on her nails”. RTP answered with the following question: “what does that have to do with anything?” "

Not convinced by this claim. It sounds half way to those ghastly "Joost got disqualified because the Israeli delegates made fun of his dead parents" lies that were being passed gaily around the internet.

Belgium Press
https://m.gva.be/cnt/dmf20240512_95928998?journeybuilder=nopaywall

“The Swedish police have investigated a complaint filed by a female member of the production crew following an incident following his participation in the semi-final on Thursday,” the Eurovision organization said on Saturday afternoon. Klein's disqualification followed in the same message. Consternation arose among the Dutch delegation, who later also issued a statement of their own.

According to AvroTros, the broadcaster that organizes the Dutch entry, an incident had indeed occurred. “Against clear agreements, Joost was filmed when he had just gotten off stage and had to rush to the greenroom. At that moment, Joost repeatedly indicated that he did not want to be filmed. This was not heeded. This led to a threatening movement from Joost towards the camera. Joost did not touch the camera woman. This incident has been reported, followed by an investigation by the European Broadcasting Union (EBU) and police.” According to the broadcaster, the disqualification was therefore disproportionate

Same camerawoman
But according to Cornald Maas, the Dutch commentator for Eurovision, the incident on Thursday would not have been an isolated event. It was already known on Friday that the EBU had previously reprimanded Joost Klein for a small incident behind the scenes. There was no official confirmation of this, but Maas did clarify that it was the same camerawoman. “Joost has been harassed several times by this lady, there was also a moment a week ago that caused a bit of a fuss. Joost then indicated that he did not want it, but it happened again and then again," he said. “I wasn't there (Thursday, ed.) , but as far as I know Joost pushed her phone down with his hand, that's all it meant.”

According to the Swedish newspaper Aftonbladet, there may be more going on. The incident allegedly happened just as Klein came off stage and therefore there were several witnesses present. According to those witnesses, Klein was “very offensive,” a source told the newspaper. The newspaper also writes that the woman's camera broke during the incident. “She has been offered help and support, but as I understand it she is quite devastated by the incident,” said another source.

You wouldn’t necessarily need physical contact for the camera to be damaged - I expect dropping it would suffice.

I think this is a good point. The performance as a whole required a serious level of cognitive dissonance from the televoting public that clearly wasn't forthcoming.

'Dizzy for your kisses' was one of the few lines (on repeat) that was clearly understandable during the live final performance. It's something you could imagine being sung by any middle-of-the-road artiste or love ballad crooner.

Yet the staging was evocative of some kind of Frankie Goes To Cottaging chem sex party scene. And because this frenzied and energetic staging took precedence over everything else, Olly's vocals couldn't keep up with all the frotting.

This was a mistake. This wasn't a fun Saturday night performance at the Royal Vauxhall Tavern - it was Eurovision, with a global audience.

I'd have rewritten that facile lyric 'dizzy for your kisses' and got rid of the manky toilet. I wonder if anyone ever suggested this, and if it was overruled? I think the jury points were for the tune and the beat, which were OK.

Sander Schimmelpenninck has an article in ‘De Volkskrant’. Seems more critical. Google translation of most relevant bits below.

————————————————————————-
There is still plenty of speculation about that disqualification, and it may well be that the 'threatening movement' of which Klein is accused was of little significance, as the Dutch delegation claims. The incident seems to be the stick that the organization, with an Israeli company as main sponsor, was looking for. Klein's banishment seems like a total sum, and I still understand that.

After all, Klein behaved quite idiotically: during a press conference he hid his head in the Dutch flag and gave irritated answers to completely normal questions. Someone asked if his song can connect us all, to which Klein made smacking noises and referred to the organization: "Just ask the EBU." The contrast with the Israeli singer sitting a little further away: the only 20-year-old Eden Golan gave her answers professionally and in fluent English.

A key moment came after a critical question to Golan: did she not endanger the safety of the other participants with her presence? Her supervisor spoke patronizingly to the effect that she did not have to answer that question, and Klein suddenly intervened. “Why not?” he shouted. Golan, who must have been under immense pressure, did not give in and gave a 'normal' answer, and an excellent answer at that.

Joost Klein and his entourage – they seemed like fun, creative guys to me – simply couldn't keep their cool. They have succumbed to the pressure of the event and the anti-Israel sentiment in their social media bubble, which demanded Klein condemn Israel. This resulted in the lackluster behavior during the press conference, in which a hesitant statement could be discerned. Adolescent and devoid of any class, as the Dutch simply manifest themselves abroad. 'This is typical Joost. Maybe that's why we like him so much," said commentator Richard van de Crommert.

But what Dutch people like, hardly anyone outside the Netherlands likes. We consistently confuse boldness with assertiveness or even humor; we are clumsy and noisy, but we see that as normal. In fact, outside our own borders we are downright colonial: they just adapt to us. We convince ourselves that at least our jerkiness is real, and the manners of others are fake, and complaints about our behavior are posturing. And so half the country is now outraged by Klein's exclusion: it's never our fault.

Taking sides can also be done in silence. And if you do want to make a statement, you can do it a lot more creatively and with class. Or do people in the Netherlands really think that Klein was the only participant who struggled with the pressure and unrest about Israel's participation? Joost Klein's cheerful song managed to connect the country and transcend political colours. Unfortunately, this also turned out to apply to the Dutch lack of civilization.

https://www.volkskrant.nl/columns-van-de-dag/joost-klein-en-zijn-entourage-hebben-simpelweg-het-hoofd-niet-koel-kunnen-houden~b5b88cc4/

Thanks, @Cailleach1. That's an interesting take. I really enjoyed his song but he did seem like a charmless oaf at the press conference.

Lol at 'charmless oaf' but yes I agree.

'Dizzy for your kisses' was one of the few lines (on repeat) that was clearly understandable during the live final performance. It's something you could imagine being sung by any middle-of-the-road artiste or love ballad crooner.
I had not listened to the song before seeing it live and considering the staging just assumed those kisses were not meant for his face….
It was badly sung, sexual and I really didn’t like the dirty toilet. The limited setting also meant we couldn’t see the crowd and it somehow felt less “live” than other performances. He’s not that famous in Europe too and I’d say 99% of watchers wouldn’t know who he was. I didn’t even know and I have some years and years songs in my playlist.

I think the UK should do a national selection contest. It would help raise interest in whoever wins.

I think the UK should do a national selection contest. It would help raise interest in whoever wins.

I think it might be good to go back to the way I remember it in the 1970s. The singer was 'anointed' by the BBC but they'd sing different songs over a period of time on TV shows, and we voted on which song to send to Eurovision. It put the focus on the which was the best song.

Looking at the votes given by Ireland. The Jury vote was very different from the popular vote.

-The popular vote (in line with most of the popular votes, I think) was 12 for Croatia, 10 for Israel and 8 for Ukraine.

-The jury vote was 12 for Switzerland, 10 for Sweden, and 8 for Luxembourg.

https://www.independent.ie/entertainment/music/how-ireland-voted-in-the-2024-eurovision-song-contest-and-which-countries-gave-bambie-thug-points/a246287910.html

This chimes hugely with the cultural differences between the Dutch and other nations I'm aware of and the comments about the instability of Joost that were well known about in the Dutch music industry.

When you have people who knew him saying they were unsure he would be able to cope with the pressure, it's difficult to dismiss it as purely a misunderstanding.

Equally the Dutch are very blunt and often interpreted as rude by other nationality even if that is not the intention.

Then there's the pressure cooker and control of the EBU and Eurovision which I've also been previously told of.

There are massive questions about how duty of care and how much harassment was going on backstage and how the EBU were clearly not on top of issues from the beginning for all national teams and representatives.

The pressure put on artist about Palestine/Israel added a layer not previously there and it seems like the press conference was the final straw.

It was said between the conference and the incident that no one wanted to be in the room with Israel for the conference they thought it was a recipe for disaster. Many felt if they didn't hit the right tone it could come back to haunt them. It was a tinderbox.

Joost noticing how Israel was being protected when perhaps all the other artists felt they weren't being and that their feelings (and potentially contracts) were being ignored was one of the final straws. It's hard to argue that there were not various issues with harassment from a number of parties.

I don't think the issue of Israel's participation is completely separate. It's a contributing factor to context even though the Israeli delegation may not have been directly involved in specific incidents. There was clearly goady behaviour (probably on both sides) that has been going on for two weeks which no one has managed well / challenged as being unacceptable.

It is notable that Israeli news has confirmed that Eden Golan's stylist WAS removed from the arena after filming the Irish, Swiss and Greek contestants without their consent (these were the three who didn't appear for the flag ceremony for the Saturday matinee so that strikes me as the timeline and this was AFTER the Joost disqualification and it becoming apparent what the reason was)

It should not have happened. Joost probably was in the wrong but I also think that the production team and EBU hold a lot of responsibility for not calming issues and looking after artist from the very start. They inflamed an already difficult situation. They were too focused on stopping all Eden Golan's protection.

There could have been a stepping back from the edge with a meeting between the Dutch and the EBU / Production. The EBU didn't do this. They could have argued innocent until proven guilty and then regrouped for next year and used other sanctions against the Dutch. They chose not to. This probably doesn't help anyone. The camera woman is now wanting to keep anonymity which may be difficult in the long run. It makes the EBU look bad. It could affect Joost personally though he will probably bounce back and given his career is mainly in the Netherlands is unlikely to harm him. Indeed the EBU have effectively created a martyr rather than dealing with the issue.

And there are ramifications for next year's Dutch participation.

It's an incident which isnt going away and even with strict Swedish laws and the possibility that the incident was more serious, I don't think it will reach an outcome that really in the long term is good for the camera woman, Joost, The EBU or The Netherlands or indeed Israel. It's just one great big farce and a total failure of people management throughout the duration of the contest.

It's a total shit show and quite honestly I hope that this doesn't all get pinned on Joost even if he did act aggressively in an unacceptable way. There are pile of others who need to take some responsibility for their own part in the sorry saga. I don't think it's an isolated incident. It's part of a build up of issues that have not been appropriately dealt with over the course of some time.

Excellent post @RedToothBrush 👏

My problem with that is that British tastes aren't necessarily in line with European tastes. A public vote also is missing the point about half the vote being a jury vote too.

And when we've done this in the past, quite frankly the artists who have been shortlisted have been utterly dreadful anyway.

We need to consider three things:
The technical ability of the artist
The staging and whether it's shit or totally OTT
The audience. That is European not just British and not just gay
The song itself. It's a song contest.

We have this weird idea that Eurovision is for the gays or very silly or fail to consider that you want a song that connects with other - either catchy and easy for none English speakers or captures emotion beyond words.

We instead go gay gay gay, Scooch, really wordy or completely over stage so even good singers do not perform well technically.

Our best entry in years was Sam Ryder. He ticks which of the above boxes ... ?

On a different note, I'm wondering whether it's time to shift the scoring system from 1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/10/12 to a straightforward 1-12.

The current system of announcements means that it wouldn't take up any more time, it would reduce the runaway leads and make things more tense, and spreading the points more widely would reduce the number of brutal "nul points" contestants (poor wobbly voiced Olly!)

The thing is, though, the votes coming from the same country can be disparate. I refer you to the huge disparity between the Irish Jury vote and the Irish public vote. Completely different canvases.

I agree with this. That before when the public voted for who to represent us it went wrong. They were doing better picking songs more suited to Europe and then last years I didn’t like and this year agree it was just to try hard.

Are you me???
Except Greece, wasn’t a fan of that.

😁give Greece another go?! (Joking)
@VisionEuro

It is notable that Israeli news has confirmed that Eden Golan's stylist WAS removed from the arena after filming the Irish, Swiss and Greek contestants without their consent

From ynetnews.com: Bezaleli said that he, along with others, was filming the Swiss, Irish and Greek representatives when "the Greek yelled at me, 'Don't film!' and flipped me off. Even though I wasn't the only one filming, she singled me out." Following the incident, Bezaleli was removed from the arena.

The thing about Joost, is that he performs songs which are very personal, and he becomes very emotional. About losing his parents, and mental health awaiting treatment. He lost his dad to cancer when he was around 11/12. His mother was so affected by this, I think she had to be admitted for care. He went to and fro between adult siblings during this time. When his mother was home, around a year after his father’s death, he went to visit her and found her dead body on the sofa. She had died from a heart attack, I think.

His style of performing is known, and he wraps a flag to hide his head a lot. He breaks down and cries under the flag. He has played the Dutch Lowlands and Pinkpop festivals, (these are on his YouTube channel). You see him a lot with the Friesland (province where he’s from) flag around him.

Knowing how fragile he can become after singing about his parents, why didn’t they get someone to channel him through to the green room. Hindsight, I know. But planning is preventative.

Oh gosh @Cailleach1
I didn't know the full extent of his story :(