Our Flag Means Death. It's utterly brilliant and I am obsessed!

[TriceratopsRocks]

I'm sure I found a thread on this series a while ago, but now season 2 is out I've looked back and I can't find anything apart from the renewal petition.

For anyone who hasn't come across it yet, I would thoroughly recommend. It starts off as a sort of workplace comedy set on a pirate ship, sort of in the style of Ghosts, and with a similar fanbase to Good Omens. When the 2nd lead character arrives at the end of episode 3, it starts to change and it only hit me two thirds of the way through season 1 that I was actually watching a very different sort of show to the one I thought I had started watching.

From that point it's phenomenal. The attention to detail is superb. Both leads are clearly neuro diverse, from abusive backgrounds and damaged because of these. They both want what they think the other one has. It's about them discovering themselves, accepting themselves for who they really are, and healing. There is comedy, but also heartbreak and despair. The show handles these so sensitively and accurately, down to minute details, and Taika Waititi and Rhys Darby deserve every award under the sun for their work here.

I don't think I've ever obsessed about a show as much as this one. I've tried to make this not too spoilery in case some of you want to watch it, but really I just want someone to talk to about it! I've already watched it countless times and the more I rewatch the more I appreciate it. I said I was obsessed and I really am!

The show has sadly been cancelled, despite its popularity, and the producers are currently trying to see if it will be picked up by another network. I have read that they are keeping an eye on the iPlayer numbers as part of this, so I also wanted to shamelessly plug it here 😁

If any of you haven't seen it and fancy giving it a try, it grows into itself in the first season and you really need to give it at least 4 episodes (episode 4 is where the main story really starts). Its not a show I would have thought to watch myself (DD wanted me to watch it with her) but I'm so glad I have.

I don't really know what I want from this thread really. I want more people to find it, but I also want to just talk about it and obviously can't do that without more spoilers than I've already given. Help me out people!

That's a fantasic post, and one I hadn't seen (I've seem a similar but far shorter version). I find it's easy to miss things on Tumblr, particularly becasue I always keep accidently refreshing it on my phone and have to decide whether to start scrolling down all over again...

@TriceratopsRocks I love that scene - they are completely flummoxed by the social rules of finally having a room, it’s so sweet and real.

@BillStickersIsInnocent That's it! And their expressions at the end capture that so perfectly.

I hadn’t thought of Izzy as being especially manipulative (at least not successfully)
@lizziesaurusx That's really interesting as almost all I see about Izzy is manipulation! He's an absolutely brilliant character, but right from the start we know that this isn't a person we can trust. In the earliest meetings we see him being evasive with Stede and outright lying to Blackbeard about it ("my captain wants to see you" vs "Does he know who I am?"/"Seemed to, yeah"). We see him as a go-between for BB and his crew (has he isolated BB deliberately?), telling BB that he's massaging the crew when they are worried about his judgement, whereas in fact he's violent towards them and telling them "the man's half insane"). He tells BB he's been following orders "no questions asked" when we've already been shown him questioning those orders. There are similar examples all the way up to S2E7. In the kraken episodes the manipulation is overt and again BB is isolated, but these episodes also show how he just doesn't understand Ed, so is he deliberately lying or is he just totally wrong? (I actually suspect it’s both at times). He understands BB but not Ed, so he can't handle Ed's transition from one to the other. But he definitely continues to lie and misrepresent things, especially to Stede, right the way through to the end of S2. Izzy is a dream of a role, and it’s such a testament to Con how Izzy is loved so much, when he’s a consistent antagonist working against our favourite couple for so much of the show.

He's the grit in the oyster, isn't he?

Regarding directors storming off. In the job description pretty much. It's the overly calm ones that scare me.

Groups of any type of creatives can be very annoying when you're trying to get something done...

@Phineyj it sounds as if you have experience of this! I would probably burst into tears, I hate being shouted at.

So very easy. Awards just need a 'Brilliant' category that doesn't have to be shoved in a box of just one type. Although it would probably be nabbed for 'LGBTQIA+' drama even though it is that and so much more. I think it would win a 'Human' category.

I’ve decided S1.4-7 is my happy place and I am going to hang out there for a while.

I’ve made a connection between 1.5 and 1.7 today. 1.5, Kristen Schaal touches the bow on Ed’s beard and he flinches showing trauma signs. Then in 1.7, Stede removes the food from Ed’s beard. It’s about the same spot that Schaal touches. Ed’s look of absolute trust and contentment at Stede’s touch is sublime.

The flinching in the bathtub during 1.6 when Stede is knocking on the door, followed by the childhood flashback, really reinforces Ed’s underlying trauma and trust issues.

Ed as a character loves touch, but it seems to have to be on his terms. That’s another thing Stede seems to understand about Ed instinctively. The ‘May I?’ when Stede takes and folds the red silk. The way Stede places his hand on the edge of the bath in 1.6 and allows Ed to make the decision to place his head there like a cat for comfort. Stede’s dislike of spontaneous touch is actually a balm to Ed who needs to feel safe and in control.

Season two begins to change this. I’ll have to think about it…

@TriceratopsRocks In the earliest meetings we see him being evasive with Stede and outright lying to Blackbeard about it ("my captain wants to see you" vs "Does he know who I am?"/"Seemed to, yeah") He’s a master equivocator, like Macbeth’s witches. The bastard. I love him.

@Phineyj He's the grit in the oyster, isn't he? oh, that’s a perfect description of Izzy! I’ve said before he’s hoisted by his own petard on many an occasion, aiding Ed and Stede’s relationship inadvertently.

@chaosmaker I think it would win a 'Human' category. Love this! Or ‘Understanding of the Human Condition like No Other Show’ category.

https://www.instagram.com/sambaschutte/

Check out the latest BTS post on Samba’s insta! Ed and Stede buying stuff for calypso’s birthday. Oh, the innuendo! I’m done, I’m finished.

I’ve just seen that too! Saucy.

Oh that's wonderful. But it's the last one 😭. What a lovely message from Samba though. He is an absolute star, and we are so lucky that he decided to do all that BTS filming.

Yes, they definitely put the Kristen Schaal touch in there so we could see the difference in Ed's reaction. She didn't ask. Stede always asks. That 1.7 scene shows just how comfortable Ed is with Stede. And the look in his eyes as Stede is removing the bit of 'stuff' - oh for anyone to look at you like that... makes me melt.

Ed as a character loves touch, but it seems to have to be on his terms.... Stede’s dislike of spontaneous touch is actually a balm to Ed who needs to feel safe and in control.
That's a great observation, and so key to their characters; part of why they fit together so well. Ed is able to feel safe with Stede because Stede always respects Ed's boundaries.

Season two begins to change this. I’ll have to think about it…
As I'm now back into S2 I will keep my eyes open :)

I love the idea of a 'Brilliant' category for things that can't be categorised.

Ok, so I've just sat and watched Red Flags/The Innkeeper. Blimey they are a hard watch so I'm feeling a bit emotional right now. But I have to take back something I said earlier. Izzy is brilliant in those episodes with his concern for the crew and I'm positive he means it. And the acting... The scene where Ed is trying to persuade Izzy to shoot him. Ed's utter terror when he thinks Hornigold is trying to poison him - it's like he's gone back to being a little boy. The terror of the Revenge crew when BB has taken them into the storm. Frenchie looks haunted, a shadow. Jim's anger. It's all stunning.

I'm thinking of @MrsJellybee in the safe space of 1.4-1.7 and thinking "yes please, I'd like to be back there again now!" <goes off to cuddle a hot water bottle in a safe space blanket fort (bed!) and think of the happier episodes I have to come>

@TriceratopsRocks Aaaargh I can’t believe how much I missed with Izzy - so unobservant! I have to confess that S1 I didn’t find him very interesting and so thought a lot less about his character than I did about others. Partly because I felt he was being set up as the obvious antagonist/villain and therefore less nuanced than Stede and Ed. So, we know we can’t trust him, but we wouldn’t expect to because of the character type he’s being set up to be, and I guess I assumed the crew would likewise see him, at least in S1 as ruthless and piratey, and therefore not really trust anything he says, so not be easily manipulated. Also, partly because of what that brilliant tumblr post about genre switching highlights – that he’s from a different type of show altogether where men behave like alpha males, and it’s the genre I usually find myself switching off from while waiting for the lovely romance/Muppet movie bits, or the heartfelt drama. I find Stede and Ed’s individual development in S1 and their relationship so compelling, and the crew so likeable and interesting, that for much of S1, Izzy’s scenes were the bits where I'd check my phone… In S2 that changed and I was fully on board for Izzy’s character arc and found him so moving in the last couple of episodes and yes, Con’s portrayal of him is superb.

Is he deliberately lying or is he just totally wrong? (I actually suspect it’s both at times).

I think sometimes he isn’t intentionally manipulative, he’s just wrong; sometimes when he’s trying to be manipulative he fails as he just doesn’t understand the complexity of Ed and Stede’s characters and motivation, or their relationship, so he can’t set them off each other as they don’t respond in the way he assumes they will. He acknowledges this when he tells Stede he was wrong and that he’s good for Ed and that they balance each other out.

That Tumblr post is spot on and I think that's part of why the show is so clever and so emotionally engaging - because, like life, it keeps switching from comedy to earnestness to joy to heartbreak to camaraderie to utter loneliness, from love to loss, intense emotion to complete silliness and goodness what else, all in one episode. Brilliant, and makes it endlessly rewarding viewing, but, as you say impossible to categorise, and the shifts in style/tone make it particularly hard to suss out what it's about and where it's going early in S1. Hard to market and also unfortunately puts some people off - a couple of friends have tried but given up, baffled by why what I see in it. It's such a shame both for them and for the show, which should've been huge, both in terms of audience and awards.

Perhaps there’s something wrong with me, but I had quite a lot of sympathy with Izzy in the earlier episodes. In 1.4, Blackbeard is acting like an absolute twat! Swapping clothes and prancing about deck. Not listening to Izzy’s concerns. Meanwhile the Spanish navy are approaching and no real plan appears evident. Perhaps because I’ve been that middle manager working for clueless senior types, but I so get this dynamic.

Izzy doesn’t know he’s in a rom com. He thinks he’s in Black Sails. Or in a 1940s seafaring movie. He should probably be in black and white. Where my sympathy wanes is when he sells out Stede to the English. I guess he’s angry and desperate to get BB back, but it’s incredibly vindictive.

By Season 2, Izzy’s putting himself between Kraken Ed and the crew. He’s clearly lost more toes because he’s refused to follow some of Ed’s orders with the crew’s best interest at heart. He tries to reason with Ed and even ‘channels the former owner of this vessel’ by saying they all need to ‘talk in through’. When Ed flips out and points a gun at the crew, I bloody love Izzy’s ‘Pack it in!!’ It sounds like a parent to a wayward child. And Ed is acting like a complete brat. (I know he’s unwell, but Ed isn’t some innocent like some think he is, excusing his every action.) Izzy then tries to diagnose the problem, but I think he misnames it. It’s not Ed’s feelings for Stede Bonnet that has caused the toxicity on the ship, but the shutting down of healthy channels to process the hurt. Blanket forts, marmalade, silk dressing gowns and emo poetry were working. Ed was beginning to clean up the Captain’s quarters and seeming a little brighter. Then Izzy shuts down that healthy healing route because it’s behaviour from the wrong genre! Izzy does get it to some extent later when he tells Stede ‘We did this to him’ and that the crew shouldn’t suffer for their actions.

I don’t visit the extreme Izzy quarters of the fandom online as I think they have a whole lot of stuff going on that I don’t like. Izzy can do no wrong there. But I do find Izzy fascinating and complex. What a show!

That Tumblr post is quite enlightening. 'Should be in black and white', heh. No wonder I enjoy him as a character. Probably gives off a vibe of Gregory Peck in those black and white war movies (love Gregory Peck).

I was thinking some more about Con's background having read his bio. He was advised by the careers service at school to join the army and got no encouragement to act, coming up through a youth theatre instead. That tells me two things: that he knows what it's like to achieve an ambition the hard way and that he had contemporaries who did go into the Army at 16 for lack of other options. Interesting, isn't it?

In S.4 BB is only acting like an absolute twat if judged by the genre norms of the show Izzy’s in, so Izzy comes across as uptight unfun buzzkiller. He doesn’t realise that they’ve moved into a world where pirating is treasure hunts, fancy parties, am dram and bedtime stories. The Spanish navy are approaching, but as viewers we’re caught up in the romance/comedy genre expectations, so there’s never really a sense of peril until Act of Grace. At that point, Izzy’s selling out of Stede is shocking because it injects a level of genuine extreme anger that we haven’t really expected in the genre where incompetent pirates get into scrapes but can get out of them with a bit of pretending to be a lighthouse or a haunted ship. Izzy even looks the part of a proper pirate, the careful, neat, middle manager version, compared to the cool scruffy BB version who’s boss so doesn’t need to try so hard.

By Season 2, despite Izzy's genuine attempts to protect the crew from kraken Ed, it’s too late - everything he’s has taught BB has been about shutting down healthy emotional channels and feeding the darkness, and they all suffer horribly as a result.

Yes it's true that at the beginning Izzy's desperation for Ed to make life or death decisions doesn't really resonate with the viewer because it's all been a bit lightweight thus far.

In S.4 BB is only acting like an absolute twat if judged by the genre norms of the show Izzy’s in, so Izzy comes across as uptight unfun buzzkiller

It’s all perspective. If the comedy genre can stay away from the imperialist genre then all good. But we’ve seen Stede gut-stabbed during a crossover. The threat is very real. BB is an experienced pirate and understands the stakes. He enters Stede’s magical realist cartoon world and goes into denial because artsy-blond boyfriend potential, plus fun and silk clothes. Izzy thinks he’s entered the twilight zone.

@Phineyj My Gregory Peck is Atticus Finch 🤓

But we’ve seen Stede gut-stabbed during a crossover

Ah yes, excellent point, sorry, I got so carried away with my theory that I completely forgot about that, which does somewhat undermine it! On more careful reading of the tumblr post I see it describes this as the first 'surprise genre switch moment'.

Wouldn't going through the whole thing spotting the genre shifts be fascinating?

I think the British soldiers are sometimes genre confused too - in 1.9 some are in imperialist mode and there is real peril, but others are enjoying being in a comedy.

Stede’s magical realist cartoon world ... artsy-blond boyfriend potential, plus fun and silk clothes

I love that description - it highlights how/why Ed falls for Stede's world even before he falls for the man himself. Ed's life is short on lightness, kindness or warmth.

@lizziesaurusx and @MrsJellybee those are really good takes, and the different genre ideas really help me make more sense of things.

Going back to Izzy (which I'd told myself I wouldn't do, sorry!), I know at first I was definitely guilty of seeing him too one dimensionally. I'd seen all the hallmarks of attempted control and abuse; isolating, gaslighting, manipulating etc (which I can talk about for ages and point out examples right to the last episode!). Then I read a take where if Izzy were the protagonist, his actions are totally reasonable; trying his best to get the job done with a boss who is becoming ever more erratic. And although I can see that this makes sense, I’ve struggled to really accept it. Particularly selling Stede out to the English; this was the ultimate control move, getting rid of his rival and being 'given' BB in return - almost like a possession. Grrr!

But this genre stuff makes a lot of sense and makes me think a little differently. I’d already started to appreciate Izzy more when I realised he wasn’t simply an archetypical abuser, but actually was just totally misunderstanding all sorts of things. He hasn’t a clue what’s going on in Ed/Stede land and it’s why he’s so wrong about so many things (including why Ed shot him, which I’m not sure he ever understood). Thinking of Izzy cluelessly wandering about in muppet-land, wondering why the rules of alpha male land aren’t working for him does make me feel more sympathetic.

Stede’s magical realist cartoon world ... artsy-blond boyfriend potential, plus fun and silk clothes

I love that description - it highlights how/why Ed falls for Stede's world even before he falls for the man himself. Ed's life is short on lightness, kindness or warmth.

I love that description too. You have both beautifully highlighted the different worlds they are operating in.