Our Flag Means Death. It's utterly brilliant and I am obsessed!

[TriceratopsRocks]

I'm sure I found a thread on this series a while ago, but now season 2 is out I've looked back and I can't find anything apart from the renewal petition.

For anyone who hasn't come across it yet, I would thoroughly recommend. It starts off as a sort of workplace comedy set on a pirate ship, sort of in the style of Ghosts, and with a similar fanbase to Good Omens. When the 2nd lead character arrives at the end of episode 3, it starts to change and it only hit me two thirds of the way through season 1 that I was actually watching a very different sort of show to the one I thought I had started watching.

From that point it's phenomenal. The attention to detail is superb. Both leads are clearly neuro diverse, from abusive backgrounds and damaged because of these. They both want what they think the other one has. It's about them discovering themselves, accepting themselves for who they really are, and healing. There is comedy, but also heartbreak and despair. The show handles these so sensitively and accurately, down to minute details, and Taika Waititi and Rhys Darby deserve every award under the sun for their work here.

I don't think I've ever obsessed about a show as much as this one. I've tried to make this not too spoilery in case some of you want to watch it, but really I just want someone to talk to about it! I've already watched it countless times and the more I rewatch the more I appreciate it. I said I was obsessed and I really am!

The show has sadly been cancelled, despite its popularity, and the producers are currently trying to see if it will be picked up by another network. I have read that they are keeping an eye on the iPlayer numbers as part of this, so I also wanted to shamelessly plug it here 😁

If any of you haven't seen it and fancy giving it a try, it grows into itself in the first season and you really need to give it at least 4 episodes (episode 4 is where the main story really starts). Its not a show I would have thought to watch myself (DD wanted me to watch it with her) but I'm so glad I have.

I don't really know what I want from this thread really. I want more people to find it, but I also want to just talk about it and obviously can't do that without more spoilers than I've already given. Help me out people!

Izzy then tries to diagnose the problem, but I think he misnames it. It’s not Ed’s feelings for Stede Bonnet that has caused the toxicity on the ship, but the shutting down of healthy channels to process the hurt. Blanket forts, marmalade, silk dressing gowns and emo poetry were working. Ed was beginning to clean up the Captain’s quarters and seeming a little brighter. Then Izzy shuts down that healthy healing route because it’s behaviour from the wrong genre!
This is what I’ve always felt. I think Izzy never really understood why BB shot him. In 2.1 he blamed Ed’s feelings for Stede and in 2.7 his telling Ed he loved him. But neither were true. As you say @MrsJellyBee, Ed was healing in a healthy way, talking it through, singing songs, but Izzy mocked and threatened Ed for it, forcing him into the Kraken persona. That’s what caused the toxic atmosphere, not Ed's feelings. Izzy forced Ed back into a ‘toxic alpha’ role which stopped his healing and made him suicidal. But as far as Ed was concerned, as the Kraken he was giving Izzy exactly what he’d wanted. When Izzy then tells Ed he should be talking it through, which Izzy had stopped Ed doing in the first place… no wonder Ed shot him! I'm devastated for Ed in these episodes, but I really do have to give Izzy credit. He saw the problem, Ed had gone way too far, Izzy was trying to help the crew and he kept on doing so. This was ‘responsible manager’ Izzy trying to protect the crew from the insane boss. I’m just not sure that Izzy ever fully appreciated his role in causing the problem in the first place.

I was thinking whether the persona of Blackbeard is a mixture of poet Ed and the Kraken. Whilst Blackbeard can be cruel, i.e. snail fork etc, there is also humour, artistic talent and lightness. Then Izzy threatens the soft part of Ed, and I think it is ‘killed’ through shame. Because men aren’t soft and emotional and heartbroken… right? And so that part of Ed ‘dies’ or is hidden so far down it only comes out when he’s alone. And even then, it’s a broken version as it is obsessed with suicide ideation.

In 2.2, we see him throwing the wedding toppers overboard, tidying his cabin, brushing his hair into the sexy bun, tidying the make up, he ‘seems’ happier… Ed’s decided it’s his last day on earth. He’s cleaning his house. He just needs to outsource the ‘big job’ as he can’t kill himself… It’s heartbreaking. I love how Izzy tells him to clean up his own mess, refusing to kill him. When Izzy emerges on deck though in the storm and does shoot at Ed, it gives me chills. I am entirely with Izzy in that moment as he is trying to save the crew and stop Ed firing the canon into the mast.( Does the bullet hit Ed? We don’t hear of the injury afterwards.) The characterisation is so complex.

Would be great if anyone had any thoughts on these questions:

Who or what is Ruthie the pig in the Gravy Basket?
Was Ed intending to row to China in the dingy?
What happened to Ed’s mother?
Why does Stede’s son, Lewis, look so much like Doug? 🤣
Why does Ed remember Felix (Latin for Happiness)the cabin boy killed by Hornigold?
Lucius means ‘light’… lots of meta here…

These things keep me awake.

I was thinking whether the persona of Blackbeard is a mixture of poet Ed and the Kraken.
That's a fascinating idea and it really does makes sense. And as well as humour and lightness, Artistic Ed would also enable BB to be innovative, to think at a tangent (and so be history's greatest tactitian). Kraken Ed seemed single minded in his 'chase and burn' strategy.

It’s heartbreaking.
It really is. I was really feeling this last night.

I was also pondering why he couldn't take that last step himself. BB always outsourced the big job, but Kraken is wanted for beheadings and much murder. Yet while the poor crew are on their forced rampage to Strawberry Letter 23 he remains detatched, eating icing. So seems to be still outsourcing the big job.

When Izzy emerges on deck though in the storm and does shoot at Ed, it gives me chills.
It's a real 'hero' moment as he comes to save the crew, and he is every bit the part. Heart-stoppingly brilliant. But at the same time, I'm still crying for Ed and his utter despair. I can't say if the bullet actually hits, but if so it's a bit like the cannonball to the head - no evidence at all afterwards! It's magic muppet world again where he might be 'dead' but his injuries heal miraculously.

Just rewatched Impossible Birds. I'd forgotten Izzy actually cries. He's in bits at that point.

Would be great if anyone had any thoughts on these questions:

Who or what is Ruthie the pig in the Gravy Basket?
I think he's Hornigolds. Ed was very definite in his "no animals, they befoul the ship" and that can only come from experience (Ed later changed the rule to 'no pets because of attachments', but I think that was just an excuse as it sounded tougher than 'I want to my ship to be nice and clean'.

Was Ed intending to row to China in the dingy?
😂I suspect that was simply to get them to the nearest town where they would take on their new identities and look for a ship that was going that way (sorry boring answer).

What happened to Ed’s mother?
Not a clue. Does Ed, even? Did he ever go back or was he worried about being done for murder?

Why does Stede’s son, Lewis, look so much like Doug? 🤣
Actually, there might be a point here. Mary was presumably having art lessons well before Stede left - her lighthouse was very good. Stede hadn't taken any interest in her art as he had no idea of her standard ("and the children did that?") and was so wrapped up in his own world that he probably would never have noticed if her affair with Doug had been ongoing for years. I'm going to watch Louis and Doug again. I am having thoughts of their speech patterns being similar but I'm probably imagining that.

Why does Ed remember Felix (Latin for Happiness)the cabin boy killed by Hornigold?
He and Jack remembered several bonding experiences they had as young men. It's not surprising that the death of another friend in that way left a big impression. Ed seemed to be a gentle soul thrown into a harsh world ('murder changes you'). He turned into BB to survive, but the boy Ed was still there.

Lucius means ‘light’… lots of meta here…
Probably! I can't think though.

These things keep me awake.

Sending hugs your way, Phineyj. Even more so if you are going on to watch the next episodes...

Some great answers here @TriceratopsRocks I think Lucius is ‘light’ and wisdom. When Ed throws him overboard, he really is trying to kill the light and plunge everything into darkness. I think Lucius is a pseudo-Stede too. Has to go.

Fang’s so lovely here when he cuddles Izzy.

Yep, now I have got my dear students embarked on their A-level and GCSE journeys I am ready for some dark stuff as a distraction! I liked Frenchie so much in Impossible Birds. He deals much better with the horror than the others. I also thought he rocked the punk military jacket look.

MrsJellybee · Today 19:07
Would be great if anyone had any thoughts on these questions:

Who or what is Ruthie the pig in the Gravy Basket?
I am going to have to rewatch. I'm going to say it's a reference to Lord of the Flies though. Hey, I might be right.
Was Ed intending to row to China in the dingy?
I'm going to go for the answer that I read in a fic recently (this transpires when Ed and Stede are looking at a globe) that master mariner or not, Ed does not realise quite what a distance this is. Stede teases him that it would be more practical to go over land to avoid the long voyage around Cape Horn, and they end up agreeing they'd bribe an albatross with fishy snacks. Going back to canon, I don't think it's a particularly serious plan. I mean, the plan is serious on Ed's part, to run away together, but the destination may not be.
What happened to Ed’s mother?
Well, that's a good question. Nothing nice, I imagine. Are we shown Stede's mother, by the way? Is she one of the ladies clustered around the gift tombstones? That part was so bleak. Did people really give tombstones at wedding gifts?!
Why does Stede’s son, Lewis, look so much like Doug?
Oh goodness. I am convinced by @TriceratopsRocks's explanation! Genealogy studies show stuff like that was common in the aristocracy (and no doubt in other classes, but no so much 'acreage' at stake). Incidentally, I really like the lighthouse picture. It looks like the 1930s expressionist stuff they have lots of in the Tate St Ives.
Why does Ed remember Felix (Latin for Happiness)the cabin boy killed by Hornigold? He's in his own subconscious so maybe Felix either symbolises Ed himself and the horrible things he's had to do to stay alive, or else is he reflecting on what a good/bad captain is? Horniman/Ed subconscious also says 'I was hitting the rhino horn pretty hard'. Tbh the crab eating its way out through the stomach wall (man that is gross) is a very 'Jack' kind of story so @TriceratopsRocks is probably right.
Lucius means ‘light’… lots of meta here…
Lucius is very brave actually isn't he?! Good at speaking truth to power. It's kind of surprising that he only gets thrown overboard once, tbh.

Fang is a very nice person all round and belies his appearance which is full on Bond Villain Henchman/Minion on first sight.

In the midst of something quite serious I also find it hilarious that Ed's subconscious is musing on sandal manufacture and that he manages to get into a fight with himself over fantasy hotel guest check-in.

Also! (sorry I will go away and continue my grim stuff rewatch in a moment) due to watching Impossible Birds mostly from behind a cushion last time, I actually hadn't clocked the TRUST NO ONE tattoo.

The details are just amazing.

*I liked Frenchie so much in Impossible Birds. He deals much better with the horror than the others.

There's a lovely parallel to the pilot here. Before the first raid, when Stede asks the crew what they should do if they have traumatic experiences, Frenchie's answer is to "bottle it up". Sounds suspiciously like his box he locks his bad memories away in.

Impressive to be able to manage character consistency over two seasons.

Lucius = light is perfect because he brings light to the ship both in terms of general joy, wit and emotional intelligence and in terms of lighting the way for Ed and Stede in their relationship when they're being particularly obtuse

d

the TRUST NO ONE tattoo

Not my idea as I saw it on reddit, but wouldn't it have been lovely to have had a shot of Stede and Ed embracing with Stede's hands covering up 'no one'?

fantasy hotel guest check-in

That's one of my favourite scenes - I love the way Ed's trying so hard ('Jeff's being nice') - and his attention to detail: the sprig of plant on his lapel, the flowers and bell on the table, and of course hands behind his back and hair up to look professional.

Fang is a very nice person all round and belies his appearance which is full on Bond Villain Henchman/Minion on first sight.

He manages the genre switch to muppet world wonderfully well - he's so sweet :) and fits right in very quickly

Lucius = light is perfect because he brings light to the ship both in terms of general joy, wit and emotional intelligence and in terms of lighting the way for Ed and Stede in their relationship when they're being particularly obtuse

Ooh 2 excellent observations. And thank you for that video. I love Lucius, particularly in S1.

Oh, and I also love the lighthouse picture. I did try setting an image of that as my phone lock screen (fangirling but less obviously so) but the quality wasn't great and it was too blurry. I'm very happy with my watery alternative instead though.

Editing to add - considering how depressingly grey both the lighthouse and the sky are in 1.4, what does her vibrant painting signify? I can't help but think it's because she is really working hard to see the best in their marriage.

Was Ed intending to row to China in the dingy?

Doesn't Izzy say something like BB is 'the greatest sailor I ever met'? How better to prove it to Stede than by sailing to the furthest place he can imagine - after all, as he says by the campfire, 'I can do anything'.

Are we shown Stede's mother, by the way? Is she one of the ladies clustered around the gift tombstones?

I think Stede's mum is the one who say's they've purchased the tombstones as their wedding present. There are 6 people on the clifftop plus the vicar. We know Stede, Mary, Stede's dad and Mary's mum. So the other 2 people are most likely Stede's mum and Mary's dad.

I love Lucius, particularly in S1.

It's difficult in S2 as, along with Izzy, he's the one that has suffered most from the extremes of Ed as kraken. So the lightness we love about him in S1 has gone for the first part of the season, but watching him struggle with accepting Ed, and with everyone else seeming willing to just move on, means we get more depth from him than from the other crew members and consequently get to know him better.

Yes, he's so innocent in S1, whereas in S2 he's still trying to process those horrendous experiences. And he was suffering alone in the S1/S2 gap (at least the Kraken crew had each other) so his struggle was unsurprising. But he was able to move on with help from Pete and Stede. And he remained unafraid to speak his mind - though in S2 it came with added bitchiness 😆

Why does Ed remember Felix (Latin for Happiness)the cabin boy killed by Hornigold? He's in his own subconscious so maybe Felix either symbolises Ed himself and the horrible things he's had to do to stay alive I think Felix is possibly symbolic of Ed’s happiness destroyed from within

I hadn’t thought about Lord of the Flies with regard to the pig! And I’m a flippin (former) English teacher. Hmmm… definitely links the idea of Beelzebub / purgatory. Probably overthinking. The fact the pig is named and it’s Ed’s subconscious. Ruthie? Another thought I had. In the Prodigal Son, after spending all his money, the son ends up tending pigs and eating their food before returning full of regret to his father. Hornigold is tending the pigs (there’s definitely more than one), but he is Ed anyway. I like this story as it’s about redemption and change which fits with the story. Also possibly a link to Circe who turned sailors who harmed her into pigs? Or perhaps it’s just a pig!

i’m not sure Frenchie is dealing with things well. I’m worried about his locked box.