Who is watching Doctor Who tonight

[Firefly2009]

And if you've now seen it, what are your thoughts?

I'm predicting I will love it no matter what. But look forward to discussing it.

Yes, no one had dreamed up this ideology in the 80s

Yes, no one had dreamed up this ideology in the 80s
Are you trying to suggest that there were no people who were trans in the 80s?
As that's ridiculous if so.
Of course there was.
There just wasn't the words to describe and identify as much back then
Didn't mean there was no such thing, that it hadn't been "dreamed up" yet 😕

Non binary was NOT a thing in the 80s.

We are talking about non binary not trans. They are different things (which are frankly contradictory bollocks)

Doctor Who had a Non Binary Character ages ago, but never made a thing of it. Ace was fine with feminine pronouns but refused to be defined by female stereotypes or social limitations.
Different times.

So every woman who doesn't fit in with all the feminine stereotypes is 'non-binary' then? Bollocks to that. Did Ace say she was non-binary? If not, how do you know that's how she 'identified'?

By that definition I'm non binary. Except I think it's regressive fucking bollocks after rejecting stereotypes rather than adopting labels.

Are you trying to suggest that there were no people who were trans in the 80s? As that's ridiculous if so. Of course there was. There just wasn't the words to describe and identify as much back then
Didn't mean there was no such thing, that it hadn't been "dreamed up" yet 😕

I'm not sure the ideology of thinking a man magically was a woman just by wanting to be one had been dreamed up. Obviously there have always been people who weren't comfortable being the sex they were born as, and chose to present themselves as the opposite sex. That's not the same as current gender ideology.

By that definition I'm non binary. Except I think it's regressive fucking bollocks after rejecting stereotypes rather than adopting labels.

Exactly.

And there was me thinking Ace was just a kickass girl who liked scrapping and blowing things up.

In the 80s there were a few transsexuals, and some transvestites.
I don't think 'transgender' existed as a thing, nor non binary.
Pop stars and others pushed against gender stereotypes.

Current thinking requires gender stereotypes to exist otherwise someone can't be trans or non binary if they don't conform.

Glad to see Ace was just a strong woman as I remember her.

In the 90s we had Louise Weiner and Justine Frischman who were slightly androgynous. And I wanted to be like that (Kate Moss wasn't that dissimilar. Also see Kiera Knightly to an extent).

There was a certain 'look'. And I didn't fit that look. No matter how much I tried. Cos short and boobs.

It was a big deal for me. And I ended up starving myself because I hated myself so much.

But a certain amount of that is about conformity and social expectations. Which you do grow out of when you stop caring what other people think.

All the female assistants have been gender non conforming, it's part of what made them kick ass role models growing up.
Women who went off to explore the universe, wore quirky outfits and kicked alien arse.

Current thinking requires gender stereotypes to exist otherwise someone can't be trans or non binary if they don't conform.

Indeed. Just when the harmful and regressive gender stereotypes were finally being dismantled, along come the TRA gang and not only reboot them, but actually decide that it's those stereotypes which should define what category of human you are. Sooo progressive

Did the PP mean Ace was the non binary character? She wasn't. She was GNC in a way that wasn't even that NC in her era. Like I say, she was cool.

I assumed they meant there had been alien characters which didn't specify sex and used they pronouns - would surprise me if there hadn't been. It's an obvious social what-if to test in a sci-fi environment, what if sex worked differently. Three sexes, one sex, cloning, hive beings that reproduce like ants or bees.

Haven’t really watched it for years….but I liked it. It was fun, DT older playing the part is better.

liked the pointed remark from domnna about dh’s suits being too tight.

the ending was a bit rushed,I think Donna could just let it go now as it was divided between her and her daughter.

loved the new tardis….

Trans is a social phenomenon. There have been different ways across history to label and deal with people who don't feel comfortable with the social norms associated with their sex.

Interpreting them as "not really being men" resp women is quite backwards in many ways. For societies who couldn't conceive of women being doctors or hunters say it was easier to say that a woman who was was in some metaphysical sense really a man than to address their fundamental assumptions. And easier for those rebellious women to flat out pretend to be a man than fight the whole of society and likely lose.

When I grew up there was a strong movement towards ditching the assumptions rather than letting people jump from one stereotype box to another. Now that seems to have swung the other way and kids think they need an identity just to have a haircut and wear jeans and check shirts. Stuff we thought just standard matter of personal taste.

We also need to disentangle "trans" from the history of cross dressing associated with gay men and women's response to living in a homophobic society. If people grew up without a cultural frame of reference for homosexuality, that may get expressed as I wish I or my partner was [opposite sex], cross dressing as a 'signal' to help homosexuals locate each other, or simply out of lack of interest in being what society considered conventionally attractive to avoid attention from the opposite sex. Someone like Marsha P Johnson - he knew he was "a boy" and didn't define himself as anything else although playing about flamboyantly with costumes and pronouns and living long enough and in circles where transsexuality was known.

Interpreting people from other times in modern language of "gender identity" simply isn't appropriate.

Haven’t really watched it for years….but I liked it. It was fun, DT older playing the part is better.

He literally hasn't seemed to age at all, he looks exactly the same 😁
minus the fact he's got a few extra wrinkles around his eyes since last time

No I wasn't but it would be a minority and we weren't so obsessed with people's sexuality then.

@Elentwelvedoc i loved Capaldi’s Doctor- currently rewatching (again) on I player. Hell Bent and Heaven Sent are brilliant episodes

I found last night all a bit messy and ham fisted - as someone said up thread, good writing is subtle it doesn’t hit you round the face like that. Including trans characters and addressing things like aliens aren’t human so maybe aren’t’male/female’ I get but it didn’t need to be so spotlit it spoiled the plot.

and yes - the Women let it go stuff was shit ( when has Donna ever let anything go, Nerys!) and the non binary stuff made no sense as Rose is a trans woman not non binary

hoping the next episode is better as I loved Donna and 10 together

Worst Dr Who episode ever! I don't even know where to start.

Is Rose non binary or trans? Why does it matter and what has that to with women letting it go? How is Rose 15, she looks about 25. None of it made sense, least of all a London cabby giving his keys to a total stranger.

Is no one bothered that two people who are from London, and live and work in London, appear to have raised a child with a northern accent? It was so jarring!

loved that they dropped in the “tuna madras” line hehehehe!

No I wasn't but it would be a minority and we weren't so obsessed with people's sexuality then
Being trans isn't a sexuality though?
Your sexuality and whether you're trans or not are two separate things

Yes that was utter nonsense! And The Doctor is the same person no matter what the face. When she was a woman she not only didn't think about ' letting it go' but couldn't even be bothered to go back and find Donna. The Roseactir is a poor actor do couldn't change their accent.

I don't mean to go too far down a rabbit hole but if the biology needed for the meta thingy to leave them unharmed was non binary, surely Rose needed to be intersex. Otherwise the meta thingy was a social construct? So confused and I thought we might be back to fighting aliens and rocking round t th e universe at first !

Wtf was the sonic screwdriver doing drawing shields?
Why is rose about 25 years old?
Why didn't the dr do anything 'clever'? (That's my favourite bit of any episode).

It felt like a set up episode. How can we get Donna and the dr back together without Donna dying? Voila.

It felt like a set up episode. How can we get Donna and the dr back together without Donna dying? Voila.

Well yes, they did have to solve that conundrum to be fair!