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The Reckoning: Jimmy Savile - BBC1 9 Oct SPOILERS

240 replies

YokoOnosBigHat · 09/10/2023 11:48

I couldn't see a thread for the five part drama The Reckoning starring Steve Coogan as Jimmy Savile, so thought I'd start one.

I'm in bed with Covid so have decided to start watching. Half an hour into the first episode and I can safely already say that Coogan's performance is extraordinary. The voice, the mannerisms, they're amazing.

For anyone interested and who isn't familiar, the framing device of Savile telling his life story for an author interested in writing a book is based around Dan Davies's research for his account 'In Plain Sight'. Well worth a read for anyone who wants to know more about how the establishment wilfully ignored what was going on right under their noses.

Interesting article on the drama by Mark Lawson for The Guardian here and Lawson's account of how he tried and failed to report Savile at the BBC in 2006 here.

Look forward to discussing this all. Have marked it as spoilers as all parts are on iPlayer and are there really any spoilers possible for this story?!

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
paranoidnamechanger · 16/10/2023 10:58

Theroux wasn't duped, though. He indirectly asked Saville if he was a paedophile to which Saville gave a vague answer. I can't believe that someone as intelligent as Theroux was duped (but I know he says he was).

In 2001, Theroux reported him, but was ignored.

Utterbunkum · 16/10/2023 19:06

@CurlewKate I think some of the problem is that we are so used to young presenters now we forget that, back then, most presenters on TV were older white males. We didn't think Jimmy Saville presenting TOPT was unusual, because, frankly, it wasn't. And, right up until the death of Bruce Forsyth, you still had that somewhat icky pairing of an old white guy with a pretty young female. Older white guys dominated TV and to a degree, until the big shakeup, radio 1. Until someone did in the 90s, who really questioned the hairy cornflake presenting on prime time radio 1, despite its listeners being primarily younger?
And who could forget the repeated pairing of an ageing Bruce Forsyth with a pretty 20 something? He was still doing that in the 2,000s. I think most people had started to find that a bit yuk towards the end, but when you grew up with Larry Grayson and Isla Sinclair, Forsyth and everyone he presented the generation game with, you thought less of it.

TooOldForThisNonsense · 16/10/2023 19:25

The programme was made by ITV though, but commissioned by the BBC.

What a grim watch. What a thoroughly vile man. I couldn’t help but note it was largely women who suspected what he was like.

Steve Coogan was amazing

I watched Jim’ll fix it but I didn’t really like Savile I just thought he was kind of a weird old bloke. My parents couldn’t stand him.

GonnaGetGoingReturns · 16/10/2023 20:05

Utterbunkum · 16/10/2023 19:06

@CurlewKate I think some of the problem is that we are so used to young presenters now we forget that, back then, most presenters on TV were older white males. We didn't think Jimmy Saville presenting TOPT was unusual, because, frankly, it wasn't. And, right up until the death of Bruce Forsyth, you still had that somewhat icky pairing of an old white guy with a pretty young female. Older white guys dominated TV and to a degree, until the big shakeup, radio 1. Until someone did in the 90s, who really questioned the hairy cornflake presenting on prime time radio 1, despite its listeners being primarily younger?
And who could forget the repeated pairing of an ageing Bruce Forsyth with a pretty 20 something? He was still doing that in the 2,000s. I think most people had started to find that a bit yuk towards the end, but when you grew up with Larry Grayson and Isla Sinclair, Forsyth and everyone he presented the generation game with, you thought less of it.

@Utterbunkum its shocking to think how when I was young seeing older male presenters with younger women, the innuendo, taps on the bottom and we didn’t question it a bit, it’s just what it was. You got wolf whistled and cat called in the street by younger and older men and you never thought to question it. Now you see people like Donald Trump with Ivana and you think (well I do) dirty old man. I’m not saying that’s the case in all these relationships.

mrsnjw · 16/10/2023 20:14

Ok dollies do your dealing ...

GellerYeller · 16/10/2023 23:16

Women on many TV programmes were mostly disposable eye candy, especially on game shows, there to demonstrate(decorate?!) the prizes. Even newsreaders seemed to be picked for their looks-Selina Scott and Angela Rippon were seen in the press as ‘the thinking man’s crumpet’. On kids’ shows there were token women ‘for the dads’. Sally James on Saturday mornings on Tiswas for example.
I can’t imagine they were treated with as much respect as their male counterparts.

Lalgarh · 16/10/2023 23:40

That comment Thatcher made at Christmas at chequers in episode 3 about how she's sort of keeping the "unattached men" in her cabinet with company on Christmas so they aren't spending it alone.

Might be a reference to her Parliamentary private secretary Peter Morrison

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/margaret-thatcher-knew-paedophile-torys-5669409

Thatcher knew Tory paedophile's secret but STILL got him knighted

The former PM also recommendedalleged abuserLeon Brittan and is claimed to have been aware of allegations about fellow knights Jimmy Savile and Cyril Smith

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/margaret-thatcher-knew-paedophile-torys-5669409

Utterbunkum · 17/10/2023 09:20

@GonnaGetGoingReturns I agree it was shocking and it made it so much easier for the likes of Saville to blend in when all the family friendly gameshows etc were hosted by ageing white male comedians and leftovers from variety. I recently watched an old episode of Bullseye. Jim Bowen absolutely made me cringe. What also made me cringe was a few years ago I watched the classic EastEnders episodes about Michelle Fowler's pregnancy. They had this build up about who the father was, showed her calling the phone and a few different men answering it. All the possible were old enough to be her father, but even when it was revealed, the fact that it was dirty Den was more important than his age. No suggestion the 16 year old had been groomed, in fact, the opposite, as Michelle in earlier episodes was shown apparently flirting with the other suspects. That did not age well.

Utterbunkum · 17/10/2023 09:37

@GellerYeller yep. I think Blue Peter was the other kids show that had regular female presenters but women were pretty much non-existent in the presenting game in general. And, thinking about it, whilst we don't have so much of the 'lovely assistant' vibe, the majority of TV gameshows/ comedy panel shows are STILL presented by men. Women STILL aren't getting those gigs. Shows how far we still have to go.

GellerYeller · 17/10/2023 23:13

@Utterbunkum very good point. In fact not that long ago, Meghan Markle was amongst what the press call ‘a bevy of beauties’, opening boxes on USA’s version of Deal or No Deal. Rachel Riley, Carol Vorderman- lauded for their looks and their intellect comes second. You’re right, women seem an afterthought.
More than one female panellist on Mock the Week commented they were the token female on the panel post Me Too. Still far to go for sure.

AndrewGarfieldsLaptop · 18/10/2023 01:53

I watched it all last week but I have one question. Was it implied that he assaulted his mother after she passed? It stated that he sat with her body alone all night, and that he wore his dads wedding ring. The reporter asks "do you see yourself married to the duchess?"

:(

CesareBorgia · 18/10/2023 07:53

AndrewGarfieldsLaptop · 18/10/2023 01:53

I watched it all last week but I have one question. Was it implied that he assaulted his mother after she passed? It stated that he sat with her body alone all night, and that he wore his dads wedding ring. The reporter asks "do you see yourself married to the duchess?"

:(

This is something that no one can know - the viewer will have to make up their own mind based on Savile's words as relayed in the programme.

TooOldForThisNonsense · 18/10/2023 10:21

Utterbunkum · 17/10/2023 09:20

@GonnaGetGoingReturns I agree it was shocking and it made it so much easier for the likes of Saville to blend in when all the family friendly gameshows etc were hosted by ageing white male comedians and leftovers from variety. I recently watched an old episode of Bullseye. Jim Bowen absolutely made me cringe. What also made me cringe was a few years ago I watched the classic EastEnders episodes about Michelle Fowler's pregnancy. They had this build up about who the father was, showed her calling the phone and a few different men answering it. All the possible were old enough to be her father, but even when it was revealed, the fact that it was dirty Den was more important than his age. No suggestion the 16 year old had been groomed, in fact, the opposite, as Michelle in earlier episodes was shown apparently flirting with the other suspects. That did not age well.

Excellent point. Both in the BBC and elsewhere. Look at Bill Wyman and the child Mandy Smith

TooOldForThisNonsense · 18/10/2023 10:23

AndrewGarfieldsLaptop · 18/10/2023 01:53

I watched it all last week but I have one question. Was it implied that he assaulted his mother after she passed? It stated that he sat with her body alone all night, and that he wore his dads wedding ring. The reporter asks "do you see yourself married to the duchess?"

:(

I think the viewer is meant to make up their own mind. Personally I wouldn’t put it past him to have violated her in death

Utterbunkum · 18/10/2023 11:48

I watched the last episode last night (I am one of those people who still watches TV the old fashioned way of waiting for the next episode). I know there's people who think it shouldn't have been made, that it says nothing new, but for me, as someone who grew up when Saville was at the height of his career, it made me think. His voice and face were all over the TV in the 70s and 80s. The full horror of what this man did and how he did it was brought home in this drama to me more than any preceding documentaries. And the culture of the times I grew up in had a harsh light shone on it. It made me think about the importance of representation on TV and what wasn't there for me, as a girl. What I saw women doing and more importantly, what they weren't doing, as discussed in my earlier threads, and why this actually matters. Saville should have stood out like a sore thumb. There's a reason he didn't. It's a good argument against those who think life before 'woke culture ' was so much better. Get the rose tinted specs off and remember that in those so-called simpler times when allegedly nobody got offended, the truth was more like nobody listened. Thus our first female PM knighted a man like Saville.

He got away with it not just because he was a supreme manipulator, but because the culture of the time made it easier for him. 'That's just Jimmy'...the sentence we all heard to excuse the office sleaze, the racist, the sexist. I have used it myself.

CesareBorgia · 18/10/2023 12:55

TooOldForThisNonsense · 18/10/2023 10:23

I think the viewer is meant to make up their own mind. Personally I wouldn’t put it past him to have violated her in death

Show quote history

You could speculate that that's how he developed the fetish (if that's the right word) of necrophilia - trying to recreate that time he described as 'the happiest time of his life' but since he never admitted to it and there were no witnesses, it can only ever be speculation.

Chiaseedling · 18/10/2023 15:22

@Utterbunkum - so true - I was a child of the 70/80s too.

BeverleyMacker · 18/10/2023 16:53

AndrewGarfieldsLaptop · 18/10/2023 01:53

I watched it all last week but I have one question. Was it implied that he assaulted his mother after she passed? It stated that he sat with her body alone all night, and that he wore his dads wedding ring. The reporter asks "do you see yourself married to the duchess?"

:(

Savile said the 3 days he spent with his mum's body was "the best days of his life". He was such a sick depraved individual that nothing would surprise me 🤢🤢🤢

CrapGoat · 19/10/2023 01:13

@JMSA she's the one in the interview upthread isn't she. I agree, how unsafe must the world have been for her Sad and she didn't learn to speak until she was ten.
@TooOldForThisNonsense I don't put it past him either. In fact, I think he did it-someone like him with a dead female in front of him, he'd have not been able to resist, no matter who it was-perhaps even more attracted because of who it was!

Ramalangadingdong · 19/10/2023 10:49

Utterbunkum · 17/10/2023 09:37

@GellerYeller yep. I think Blue Peter was the other kids show that had regular female presenters but women were pretty much non-existent in the presenting game in general. And, thinking about it, whilst we don't have so much of the 'lovely assistant' vibe, the majority of TV gameshows/ comedy panel shows are STILL presented by men. Women STILL aren't getting those gigs. Shows how far we still have to go.

And certainly very few older women.

Female presenters still have to be young and “glamorous” but men have no such pressure. Emma Willis, Holly Willoughby all fit the stereotype of the kind of woman a male producer might fancy. They don’t want older women because - as Savile said - they know too much and just might be more deserving of the top jobs than the men who usually get them.

ohsotired2022 · 19/10/2023 17:05

NewspaperTaxis · 12/10/2023 19:45

Coogan is very good as Savile but better as the older version. No getting around it, it's easy to age up than age down. Coogan has too much of a midriff to be the younger guy, even if Savile always seemed a ghoulish middle-aged type anyway. Coogan also doesn't always capture Savile's charm and bounce, which many say he never had but... on YouTube clips I see it, he had an energy, a positivity that was worth a lot in the grim era of the three-day week. He had a bit of the actor Wilfrid Hyde Whyte, or the puppet Basil Brush, a sort of sly twinkle, a bit of mischief.
Coogan tends to be cast more as socially awkward, foot in mouth types, from Partridge onwards.

It will be trolling to some to point out his similarities to another peroxide comedian Boris Johnson but I will anyway - neither had any obvious talent, it was all bluster and nonsense and hi-energy all the way.

It depends what rabbit hole you want to descend but it does seem Savile had links to a few care homes - in Surrey, I think, was it one in Nork? Lawyers who investigate such alleged crimes - there's one long gone kids care home in Firtree Road in Banstead lawyers have been asking for evidence and testimony for years now, how long will it take then to actually bring charges? - tend to sit on it for years, gathering evidence, as if for the State's benefit.
Savile was said to have visited Northern Ireland a fair bit - that was a happy hunting ground for paedos in the late 60s and indeed Lord Mountbatten is alleged to have worked his way through one Northern Ireland care home, as in sexually abusing the young lads there, so there you have the link.

If you know the dirty secrets, the State will cover for you - so long as you have them in your back pocket and don't wave them around or look like you may whistleblow, then it's a very different outcome.
And one way of being trusted with the State's dirty secrets is to have a few of your own - you're hardly going to risk whistleblowing then, are you?
There's a YouTube clip on a 1970s edition of Parkinson with Savile and MASH star Alan Alda as a fellow guest listening in on what seems to be Savile's usual brand of verbal nonsense anecdote but the comments below point out what a very odd story it is - Savile introducing a young girl to Prince Philip at a bash at Buckingham Palace. It really did seem like a partially made-up story as a way of flagging up to the powers that be - 'Remember, I know your secrets and I'm keeping them for now. Make sure you look after me.' If so, that they certainly did.

@NewspaperTaxis Great Post.
I remember going down a Rabbit Hole when the revelations first came out years ago.
He had links to Children's Homes in Jersey.
There was also rumours that he provided vulnerable children from Foster Homes for parties of the rich and influential.
If this was true he knew many a secret of some very powerful people.

It's heartbreaking for the victims.

I hope we have learned lessons from this.

Lottapianos · 19/10/2023 17:50

'It will be trolling to some to point out his similarities to another peroxide comedian Boris Johnson but I will anyway - neither had any obvious talent, it was all bluster and nonsense and hi-energy all the way.'

I thought of Johnson repeatedly through all four episodes. NOT suggesting that Johnson is a paedophile, but there are similarities between both men in terms of endless manipulation, self interest and ambition. Lies seemed to come easier than truth to both of them. And in terms of presentation - ridiculous hair, silly costumes, a contrived and deeply cynical 'eccentricity' which some are utterly repulsed by and others can't get enough of. Both very disturbing characters

Thought Coogan did a terrific job with an extremely challenging character. It was definitely a portrayal rather than an impression, and rightly so

TrouserTownie · 20/10/2023 09:39

Utterbunkum · 18/10/2023 11:48

I watched the last episode last night (I am one of those people who still watches TV the old fashioned way of waiting for the next episode). I know there's people who think it shouldn't have been made, that it says nothing new, but for me, as someone who grew up when Saville was at the height of his career, it made me think. His voice and face were all over the TV in the 70s and 80s. The full horror of what this man did and how he did it was brought home in this drama to me more than any preceding documentaries. And the culture of the times I grew up in had a harsh light shone on it. It made me think about the importance of representation on TV and what wasn't there for me, as a girl. What I saw women doing and more importantly, what they weren't doing, as discussed in my earlier threads, and why this actually matters. Saville should have stood out like a sore thumb. There's a reason he didn't. It's a good argument against those who think life before 'woke culture ' was so much better. Get the rose tinted specs off and remember that in those so-called simpler times when allegedly nobody got offended, the truth was more like nobody listened. Thus our first female PM knighted a man like Saville.

He got away with it not just because he was a supreme manipulator, but because the culture of the time made it easier for him. 'That's just Jimmy'...the sentence we all heard to excuse the office sleaze, the racist, the sexist. I have used it myself.

Brilliant post @Utterbunkum

The programme really does make you re-examine the culture of the time in a different way than a documentary would. It's the story of JS himself and also a reflection on society at large.

I admit I was one who initially thought they shouldn't make this programme when I heard a drama was being made with SC. I thought "how many times are they going to go over this. Giving an audience a kick out of people's suffering." But actually it isn't like that, it's way more thought-provoking than expected.

My criticism would be that they didn't go into the role of West Yorkshire Police in enough detail - they were in his pocket. Also LGI and the BBC came across as majorly arse-covering. But I guess there's only so much you can fit into one series. The truth is bigger than anyone realised.

Utterbunkum · 20/10/2023 10:20

@TrouserTownie it's horrifying. One wonders what Thatcher would have had to say for herself had she been in a position to be asked (can't recall if she died before it came out).

The Broadmoor business beggared belief. Even if he hadn't been what we now know he was, why on earth would you give a DJ/TV presenter the running of a place like that? What qualifications did he have to manage a facility with some of the most dangerous and disturbed people in the country in it?

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