The Gilded Age

[GreekGod]

Anyone watched the first episode ? The US Downton Abbey set in New York in 1882.

Everyone keeps calling it the "US Downton" I loved it. I think possibly even more than Downton.

I would if it really was like that then in New York ie Old Money - v - New Money and the snobbery that came with that

I do wonder if Mr Raikes took some of Marion's father's money for himself. And set up the muggers to stop her going - he could then have picked her up and been there hero, therefore marrying the name and getting his entry to society. It is only Peggy's generosity that saved her

Loving this so far. Has anyone watched the extra info bits of the set & characters on Sky? Very interesting.

@AcrossthePond55

I'm completely baffled by Mr Raikes, he knows Marion is broke. He knows Agnes has a son so the $$$$ goes to Oscar.

Is a puzzlement for sure. The only thing I can figure is that red herrings planted by Fellowes have seriously misled us or that he plans to finagle Agnes into bribing him to to leave Marian alone or that he plans to ruin Marian's reputation to 'force' Agnes to support them in exchange for marrying her. But I think that he overestimates Agnes' wealth. We know that the Van Rhijn fortune isn't what it once was and that Oscar is 'fortune hunting' Gladys. I'd say there's probably only enough left to 'maintain appearances'.

Yeah I definitely agree that he's overestimated Agnes's wealth. The other scenarios are very likely possibilities considering everyone is clinging onto having a "position" in society. I want to feel sorry for Marion, but I cannot, I just want to shout at her & shake her into waking up. hopeful we're all wrong & it's a beautiful love story. Gahhhhh roll on Tuesday.

I've just had a thought If Oscar was successful in his quest to marry Gladys, would he still be obliged to financially support Marian if she's married?

@MissMarpleRocks

Loving this so far. Has anyone watched the extra info bits of the set & characters on Sky? Very interesting.

I haven't seen this! I've been stuck on YouTube I'm off to have a peek..

But as a few of us have said before- Marion's father had lots of railway shares that Raikes told her in episode 1 were worthless - perhaps they weren't and only he knew or aren't anymore. Perhaps Raikes is called his name for good reason.(Rake)

I do like the series but I find Marion's attitude/behaviour "off." She is penniless and totally reliant on the goodwill of her Aunt - if Agnes cut her off she would have nothing at all and no skills to survive. Her rebelliousness suits the plot but in reality I'd think back then as a penniless relative you would be bloody grateful and "keep your nose clean"

I just found out that Louisa Jacobson, who plays Marion, is Meryl Streep's daughter.

@SenecaFallsRedux

I just found out that Louisa Jacobson, who plays Marion, is Meryl Streep's daughter.

Yet she can't act for toffee, obviously didn't inherit her mother's talent.

omg Aunt Agnes lashing out and being mean to Ada, ordering Marion to tell Mrs Russell to sack her lady's maid and still giving Bannister the silent treatment. She's so horrible & controlling, and I believe every part of how her character is being portrayed.

And Bannister has to endure all of her venom, with a cheque in his pocket that he can't cash. I hope he resolves that no bank account situation asap before the Russell's reputation & income disappears. I get paid within 1 week direct into my bank account whenever I work overtime.

Watching the introduction of electric lighting has made me realise how cold those big houses must be brrrrrrrr.

Can we take a moment to reflect how protected & relatively comfortable we are, thanks to the advancement of technology and the myriad of civil rights laws.

So now Mr Raikes is unbothered about the trappings of being in society and is in love with Marion. .Do we believe him? Do we trust him? I don't, I still think he's up to something.

There's two more episodes left so I wonder how many storylines will be resolved??

I love Aunt Agnes. I don't think she's bad, she just can't adjust to the new society and new money. She loves and values Peggy Scott and encourages her in her journalistic endeavours.

No we don't believe him and no, we don't trust him. I believe Mr Raikes is a bit of ladies man - who saw Aurora Fanes face when she saw him flirting with the other woman in the carriage ?

i want Marion to end up with the Russells son but he's too fixated on a career in architecture

i can't believe there's only 2 episodes left ... have a horrible feeling Marion will do something stupid and poor Peggy Scott will pay for it

Love Aunt Agnes comment " You're very obedient all of a sudden, what are you planning to spring on me ? "

the fact that Bannister can't cash the cheque is hilarious - so old money v new money ie Aunt Agnes clearly pays her servants in cash and even more ironic when you think that cheques are barely used today so cheques are kind of old money really today.

I think Agnes showed the 'hard' side of herself in implying to Marian that if she 'defied' her she'd, presumably, be tossed out on her ear. Agnes also made a few unkind comments to poor Ada that showed the bit of contempt she has for her. I think Agnes has more 'Bertha Russell' in her than she would ever acknowledge. Cross her at your peril.

I love seeing Bertha's and McAllister's mutual arse-kissing. She wants his entree into society, he wants to bask in her money.

Raikes certainly seems to be playing a very subtle game with Marian if he's gold digging. I just can't believe someone who is shrewd enough to worm his way into high society would be so blind about the standards and implacability of the 'Old Guard'.

Where is Turner going to go and what plot will she hatch? She's not the type to 'go quietly'.

What and who do we think is behind the mysterious letter framing George for ordering the defective equipment? Was it just one employee's embezzlement scheme or is there a bigger conspiracy against George involved?

Only two episodes left!! I'm assuming that the final episode will involve Gladys' debut ball. What new intrigues will happen there? There are going to be sooo many unanswered questions!!!

I’m feeling sorry for Marion. She seems to really only be invited somewhere by Bertha. Also not sure how old Marian is meant to be. Not trusting that Raikes man at all. Aurora’s face said it all imo.

Marion seems to be let out alone a lot this week considering that last week Peggy had to go out everywhere with her. I agree MissMarple that we should know Marion's age - if she is 18 it might make more sense that she is a bit naive but if, say 25 less so. Meeting with Raikes at Mrs Chamberlain's was very unwise. Marion has no money so perhaps that is why she isn't top dog for invites. This is why I don't understand how small town lawyer Raikes is being invited everywhere. He has no name and no money, you'd think the top families wouldn't want him near their daughters. Also, Marion never asks Raikes how they would survive (money wise) if they married right now. Surely, he wouldn't be in a position to finance the sort of household needed (bachelor rooms are a lot cheaper).

Agnes is cruel to Ada but Ada is annoying and their dialogue is the best in the show. I love CB. Agnes had to marry a very abusive man to get money and save the "family." Ada was spared that and the harsh realities of being in such a marriage . For Agnes, her heritage is all she has - she sacrificed her happiness for it.

I liked the grand illumination scene. Everything looks so shiny and new.

@MissMarpleRocks

I’m feeling sorry for Marion. She seems to really only be invited somewhere by Bertha. Also not sure how old Marian is meant to be. Not trusting that Raikes man at all. Aurora’s face said it all imo.

Yes, I saw Aurora's face, but who I'm confused about the woman Raikes was seated next to, who was she??

I just had a thought who decides which women have a debut ball? I'm assuming Marian didn't have one? From what I can see, Agnes & Ada aren't making any attempt to find a husband for Marian - presumably because she's penniless. So does that mean, in Agnes's eyes, that Marian is destined to be a spinster??

@AcrossthePond55

I think Agnes showed the 'hard' side of herself in implying to Marian that if she 'defied' her she'd, presumably, be tossed out on her ear. Agnes also made a few unkind comments to poor Ada that showed the bit of contempt she has for her. I think Agnes has more 'Bertha Russell' in her than she would ever acknowledge. Cross her at your peril.

I love seeing Bertha's and McAllister's mutual arse-kissing. She wants his entree into society, he wants to bask in her money.

Raikes certainly seems to be playing a very subtle game with Marian if he's gold digging. I just can't believe someone who is shrewd enough to worm his way into high society would be so blind about the standards and implacability of the 'Old Guard'.

Where is Turner going to go and what plot will she hatch? She's not the type to 'go quietly'.

What and who do we think is behind the mysterious letter framing George for ordering the defective equipment? Was it just one employee's embezzlement scheme or is there a bigger conspiracy against George involved?

Only two episodes left!! I'm assuming that the final episode will involve Gladys' debut ball. What new intrigues will happen there? There are going to be sooo many unanswered questions!!!

What and who do we think is behind the mysterious letter framing George for ordering the defective equipment? Was it just one employee's embezzlement scheme or is there a bigger conspiracy against George involved?

I suspect it's one of his competitors, there was a man in episode two/three who was playing a weird long game by refusing every offer George made to buy his rail line. So George decided to build another line directly alongside his. I can't recall his name.

@greekgod

the fact that Bannister can't cash the cheque is hilarious - so old money v new money ie Aunt Agnes clearly pays her servants in cash and even more ironic when you think that cheques are barely used today so cheques are kind of old money really today.

Exactly!!

@NurseButtercup

Yes, I saw Aurora's face, but who I'm confused about the woman Raikes was seated next to, who was she??

I think it was a niece? And I think her face wasn't jealousy, it was concern that Raikes was trying to entice the girl to fall in love with him. Aurora wouldn't consider him 'suitable' for her niece and IIRC she's also seen him 'paying court' to Marian.

I just had a thought who decides which women have a debut ball? I'm assuming Marian didn't have one? From what I can see, Agnes & Ada aren't making any attempt to find a husband for Marian - presumably because she's penniless. So does that mean, in Agnes's eyes, that Marian is destined to be a spinster??

I think whoever wanted to give a 'debut ball' could do so. It would be who accepted the invitations that was the deciding factor. That's why Bertha held off on Gladys' until Gladys made friends with Mrs Astor's daughter AND Bertha got 'in' with McAllister. Bertha now feels confident that her invitations will be accepted by the 'top tier' of society.

I think Marian's lack of a ball is due to a lack of finances to throw a 'top tier worthy' ball. If Agnes can't do it 'right', she's not going to do it at all.

As far as Marian ending as a spinster, Agnes may think that Marian isn't 'worth the cost' of finding her a husband. She obviously didn't try to find Ada a husband in her younger years. It's also been made clear that Agnes married strictly for money and was very unhappy. Maybe she thinks that being a spinster 'of adequate means' is better than a marriage of convenience. Or she may think of Marian as the niece who will take care of her and Ada in their old age in repayment for a home, then presumably be the 'on call' auntie for Oscar's children. What other choice would a 'distressed gentlewoman' have back then?

The check thing will resonate a little bit differently with US audiences because they are still used here to a certain extent, but certainly less so than even five years ago. I don't know what banking practices were in the 1880s, but I know that it has been possible for many years in the US to cash a check at the bank that it is drawn on even if you don't have an account at that bank.

Raikes was talking to Cissy Bingham at the illumination. IIRC Bertha told Marion she was a rich industrialist called Henry Flagler's "niece" to whom he gives a huge allowance but the implication was she was his illegitimate child, the conversation was so quick I didn't take it in and then wondered later just who Cissie was when Raikes was flirting with her.

Perhaps Marion is too old to "come out" and is already "out" as such as she can go about to events without chaperones. She seems a lot older than Gladys and people keep saying Gladys is getting a bit old to "come out". Oscar mentioned that once Gladys is "out" she'll be at lots of events and parties and easier to get access to.

@sapatsea @SenecaFallsRedux @AcrossthePond55

Thankyou all for filling in the gaps, there's quite a lot of detail & nuance that often goes way over my head.

That's an interesting detail about how the process of a young woman "coming out" and failure to find a husband equates to being a distressed gentlewoman. All that sitting around reading & sewing, waiting for a suitable man to call on me & offer a proposal of marriage, sounds sooooo dull yawn. But the alternative life of the working class women was the extreme other end of hardship and poverty I shudder at the very thought of it.

Another random thought has occurred to me after watching the illumination. This was before central heating was invented! All of their homes, especially those huge mansions must be FREEZING cold. brrrrrrr

@SapatSea

Raikes was talking to Cissy Bingham at the illumination. IIRC Bertha told Marion she was a rich industrialist called Henry Flagler's "niece" to whom he gives a huge allowance but the implication was she was his illegitimate child, the conversation was so quick I didn't take it in and then wondered later just who Cissie was when Raikes was flirting with her.

Perhaps Marion is too old to "come out" and is already "out" as such as she can go about to events without chaperones. She seems a lot older than Gladys and people keep saying Gladys is getting a bit old to "come out". Oscar mentioned that once Gladys is "out" she'll be at lots of events and parties and easier to get access to.

Isn't Gladys 17/18 yrs old? Seems crazy that she's considered too old to be making herself available to eligible men to marry her!

IIRC the 'typical' age for coming out was 17. It was hoped that the girl would make a suitable match in her 'coming out year'. So if Gladys is 17 or 18, according to the times she's lived in she's 'wasted' from a few months to over a year. But with Gladys' father's money behind her, I'm sure there will be no lack of suitors for her hand with 'good names' if not 'good fortunes'. It'll be interesting to see what happens. Bertha will want the 'good name', George will want the 'good fortune'. Gladys will just want a good man.

A 'genteelly-raised' girl, especially one without means, needed to marry if she wanted to maintain her status and lifestyle. Women were totally dependent on men for support via marriage or inheritance. If she was left 'poor' with no marital prospects her choices were living on charity as Marian is, or finding 'genteel' employment usually as a governess or companion, probably not the 'easiest' life to live if one was accustomed to being the 'mistress rather than the maid'. For lower class females it was life in service, a sweatshop, or worse, on the streets. I think it's the reason many women back then married terrible men. They must have thought it better to be beaten than starve, I guess.

We've come far from those days, even if we haven't achieved true economic or social equality. At least we have opportunity and education now.

It was a bit later (early 1900s) but I remember my grandmother telling me about the expectations around finding a husband in her social circle. Her family was not the sort who had formal debuts, but they were solidly middle class where it was expected that a girl would live at home until she married, not working, but financially supported by her family. There was a lot of "fixing up" or introducing young women to eligible males, often at parties or church functions like "ice cream socials." My grandmother broke the mold because she insisted on getting a job. She continued to live at home, but had her own income and some measure of independence. Part of her job was helping newcomers to the community get certain services established; one of those newcomers was my grandfather, so she found her husband at work, which was quite unusual at the time.

I’ve watched the latest episode. Very satisfying in terms of some of the questions we’ve all been asking…

How old is Oscar meant to be…. He looks the wrong side of 30

Wrong side of 40 if you ask me!

Good episode. Everyone right about Peggy. I suppose it's all going to kick off at the ball. Sad there is only one more episode.