The Gilded Age

[GreekGod]

Anyone watched the first episode ? The US Downton Abbey set in New York in 1882.

Everyone keeps calling it the "US Downton" I loved it. I think possibly even more than Downton.

I would if it really was like that then in New York ie Old Money - v - New Money and the snobbery that came with that

Oscar is awful.

I Wonder if mr Russell rewards Marion for letting him know about the dodgy stenographer and Marion becomes rich !!!

Loved the ending - poor Mrs Russell. I wonder how realistic the treatment of Mrs Russell is

I'm hoping that Oscar's paramour (John?) entices Gladys right out from under his nose. Not that I want Gladys hurt but maybe he could entice her away then direct her attention to someone actually worthy of her. He surely must realize that this puts 'paid' to his affair with Oscar. How far will he (John?) carry his vendetta? Far enough to start rumours about Oscar?

I thought Bertha being given the 'bum's rush' at Mrs Astor's was a bit over the top and not super realistic. I'd think it more likely that she would have been rushed to another room with french doors to sneak out of. I'd think any 'cottage' at Newport would have plenty of french doors/windows to catch the sea air. And honestly, she's not going to walk back to Mrs Fish's house so she'll be visible sitting in McAllister's carriage which is right on the drive. If Mrs A spots her suddenly sitting in a previously empty carriage she'll know she's been in the house.

I was pretty sure that Peggy's story involved running off with a man, but I assumed she had been deserted after he 'got what he wanted'. I didn't think it would be both a man AND a child. Poor girl. I am kind of surprised she consulted an attorney to find them though. Why didn't she go right to a private investigator? I really feel that Agnes showed another glimpse of her 'not so nice' character in choosing to keep her maid. She chose convenience over morals.

And what's up with the Russell's servant (bald one) and the rather well to do looking woman he tried to speak to? Is she supposed to be someone we recognize? As in part of 'Society'? She certainly didn't act as if she recognized him.

@AcrossthePond55

I'm hoping that Oscar's paramour (John?) entices Gladys right out from under his nose. Not that I want Gladys hurt but maybe he could entice her away then direct her attention to someone actually worthy of her. He surely must realize that this puts 'paid' to his affair with Oscar. How far will he (John?) carry his vendetta? Far enough to start rumours about Oscar?

I thought Bertha being given the 'bum's rush' at Mrs Astor's was a bit over the top and not super realistic. I'd think it more likely that she would have been rushed to another room with french doors to sneak out of. I'd think any 'cottage' at Newport would have plenty of french doors/windows to catch the sea air. And honestly, she's not going to walk back to Mrs Fish's house so she'll be visible sitting in McAllister's carriage which is right on the drive. If Mrs A spots her suddenly sitting in a previously empty carriage she'll know she's been in the house.

I was pretty sure that Peggy's story involved running off with a man, but I assumed she had been deserted after he 'got what he wanted'. I didn't think it would be both a man AND a child. Poor girl. I am kind of surprised she consulted an attorney to find them though. Why didn't she go right to a private investigator? I really feel that Agnes showed another glimpse of her 'not so nice' character in choosing to keep her maid. She chose convenience over morals.

And what's up with the Russell's servant (bald one) and the rather well to do looking woman he tried to speak to? Is she supposed to be someone we recognize? As in part of 'Society'? She certainly didn't act as if she recognized him.

I don't understand why Miss Scott had to leave, she didn't have a child out of wedlock so apart from Armstrong being a cow what was the scandal?

@NurseButtercup

I think it was that Armstrong and Peggy would never have been able to 'co-exist' in peace so one of them had to go. Peggy made the decision herself to leave. It wasn't a case of Peggy being 'tainted' and sacked. In fact, when Armstrong said that she read the letter out of fear that Peggy would put the house in disrepute Agnes said "It's not Peggy that's doing that" or something along those lines. But in the end Agnes simply said "Are you sure you must leave?" to Peggy but didn't try very hard to make her stay nor did she offer to sack Armstrong.

Julian fellowes absolutely loves a secret baby storyline. I'm struggling to think of anything he's written that hasn't included one.

Mr Raikes still a bit of a mystery. My only theory is that he lied to Marion about her father's estate, and by marrying her he can take it for himself? Maybe all that talk of her worthless railway shares was foreshadowing, and it's going to turn out her father invested in Mr Russell's railway?? We will see!

[quote AcrossthePond55]@NurseButtercup

I think it was that Armstrong and Peggy would never have been able to 'co-exist' in peace so one of them had to go. Peggy made the decision herself to leave. It wasn't a case of Peggy being 'tainted' and sacked. In fact, when Armstrong said that she read the letter out of fear that Peggy would put the house in disrepute Agnes said "It's not Peggy that's doing that" or something along those lines. But in the end Agnes simply said "Are you sure you must leave?" to Peggy but didn't try very hard to make her stay nor did she offer to sack Armstrong.[/quote]
Isn't it a bizarre "status" choice that she made? Agnes is perfectly capable of bathing & dressing herself, but chose to retain her lady's maid. Miss Scott on the other hand was writing all of her correspondence, that she was struggling with, but Agnes easily let her go.

Julian Fellowes absolutely loves a secret baby storyline. So true. I was pretty sure that was going to be Peggy's secret, but I thought it would be a baby out of wedlock, as in Downton Abbey or Gosford Park (one of my favorite movies of all time).

I keep getting sidetracked and a bit irritated with the Ward McAllister character. As much as I like Nathan Lane, his accent jars. I'm from the same area of the US that Ward McAllister came from, and no one talks that way in coastal Georgia. It's possible that the accent Lane uses is authentic for the time, but it sounds very exaggerated to my ear. His wife's accent seems much more authentic to me.

From what I understand, the problem in this period is the hair more than anything. A ladies maid was expected to be a hair dresser with an understanding of modern styles, as women really could not do it themselves, especially when they married and no longer lived with their mother or sisters.

Clothing could also be a mission to put on; button boots, for example, are a real faff.

A ladies maid also took care of any mending and organising of clothes, often cleaning and washing delicate items. All that takes time. As does organising a bath at a time where there is no plumbed hot water.

We forget just how much work it took to cook, wash, and clean now we have white goods and modern lighting and heating. To maintain the appearance of a high society lady in that period, you are probably looking at two hours in a morning to just dress the hair.

I think it would have been unacceptable in Agnes’ eyes to not have a lady’s maid. Whereas she can probably have Marion write letters for her for free without any reflection on her social status.

I think Agnes’ attitude towards Miss Scott is probably historically inaccurate though. There’s a lot of room in the racist spectrum between supporting slavery, which obviously as a Unionist she wouldn’t have done, and genuinely seeing black people as her equals. This is a woman who won’t acknowledge the nouveau riche, she wouldn’t be all “I don’t see colour”. In the same way as the Granthams wouldn’t have been completely non-racist. It’s just woke-washing the characters to make them acceptable to a modern audience.

I agree that lady's maid over secretary was a choice of convenience as dressing & hair as well as caring for clothing/jewels without 'professional' assistance would be nearly impossible. And I'm sure that not having a LM could also be seen as a sign of 'financial distress' with the other ladies of the highest tier. Appearances must be kept up! Whereas Agnes always has Ada and Marian to 'help' with correspondence -since they're financially dependent on her-.

strikeout fail!

@Boood

I think it would have been unacceptable in Agnes’ eyes to not have a lady’s maid. Whereas she can probably have Marion write letters for her for free without any reflection on her social status.

I think Agnes’ attitude towards Miss Scott is probably historically inaccurate though. There’s a lot of room in the racist spectrum between supporting slavery, which obviously as a Unionist she wouldn’t have done, and genuinely seeing black people as her equals. This is a woman who won’t acknowledge the nouveau riche, she wouldn’t be all “I don’t see colour”. In the same way as the Granthams wouldn’t have been completely non-racist. It’s just woke-washing the characters to make them acceptable to a modern audience.

I disagree with this characterization, especially the notion of "woke-washing." First of all, it's clear that Agnes does not see Peggy Scott as her equal. Peggy sleeps and eats with the servants. She is addressed by Agnes and the other servants as "Miss Scott," but she is clearly not considered an equal.

Also, the history of race relations in the US is very complex, and Julian Fellowes is to be commended for showing a part of that history that few people, including few Americans, know about, which is the rise of educated affluent communities of Black people in several mostly Northern cities. And there were white people of that time, who were sympathetic to that rise and encouraged it, especially people of faith.

I think that Agnes is the most interesting character in the whole series because of the mixture of snobbery (toward the Russells) and enlightened thinking (toward Miss Scott), and her "type" is actually historically accurate.

Also "woke" is a word from African American Vernacular English that among Black people has for a long time meant being alert to racial prejudice and discrimination or consciousness of racial issues. Being woke is a good thing.

I still don't think Mr Raikes can be a wrong'un. Literally everyone is telling Marion that he's shady so surely it's too obvious for him to actually be so?

Regarding Peggy's baby, are we thinking he didn't die? I'm sure they're expecting to make several series so I'm betting on a plot twist for a later date.

@ThePennyJustDropped

I still don't think Mr Raikes can be a wrong'un. Literally everyone is telling Marion that he's shady so surely it's too obvious for him to actually be so?

Regarding Peggy's baby, are we thinking he didn't die? I'm sure they're expecting to make several series so I'm betting on a plot twist for a later date.

That wouldn't surprise me. I can't remember if there was any dialogue about Peggy being told where the baby was buried or visiting the grave. IIRC it was that Peggy was very ill after the birth and that it was 'all over' by the time she recovered enough to ask about her baby.

IF the baby survived, I have a feeling that her parents, or at least her father, orchestrated whatever happened afterwards (probably an adoption). I can see where they would have thought it 'best' to give her a 'fresh start'.

I agree that the baby is probably alive; otherwise Julian has wasted one of his favorite tropes. But I also wonder whether Mr. Raikes knows more about said baby than he has let on to Miss Scott.

@SenecaFallsRedux

I agree that the baby is probably alive; otherwise Julian has wasted one of his favorite tropes. But I also wonder whether Mr. Raikes knows more about said baby than he has let on to Miss Scott.

That's a thought. But to what purpose? The only one I can think of is for her to spy on Marian. But that would mean that the meeting at the depot, the purse snatch, and the offering of a ticket were all pre-planned in the hopes that Marian would accept Peggy's assistance. But Peggy's employment by Agnes was pure happenstance. I don't think it was known that Agnes was thinking of engaging a secretary.

And I think the idea that a 'real' friendship would have developed between Marian and Peggy to allow her to continue to spy, wouldn't have been likely, for obvious reasons. The reason they've become so close is because Peggy has been living in the same house. If Peggy hadn't gotten the job and instead had toodled right off home to her parent's house the next day, I think the 'social divide' would have kept Marian and Peggy apart.

If Peggy has been reporting to Raikes all this time there have been absolutely no hints given that I can think of. And Peggy certainly gave no hint that she knew where her baby was during the conversation about Raikes' letter.

That would be a cool plot twist though. Raikes blackmailing Peggy into being his spy in return for saying he'd tell her where her child was. He'd really be a real piece of shit then, wouldn't he?

Can't believe next Monday is the finale, already!!!

I wonder if they'll leave unanswered questions in the finale to leave the door open for another series?

@AcrossthePond55 I was thinking along the lines of Raikes being a lawyer and a lawyer being needed to annul a marriage, arrange for an adoption, etc. so perhaps a connection with Peggy's father's maneuverings. But the more I think about it, the baby was born in Philadelphia, and if they married in NY, the marriage would have to have been annulled there, and he was in Doylestown (which in that day would not have been as accessible to Philadelphia as it is today). I still have misgivings about him, though.

Mr Raikes is “well dodge” imo. I didn’t think the scenario with Bertha in Mrs Astor’s house was very realistic.

I started re-watching the series last night, and there are so many little things that I missed the first time around. One of the things that I really like about Julian Fellowes is how he mixes intimacy with grand locations and themes. It draws the viewer in so that you feel almost like a participant in the goings-on.

[quote SenecaFallsRedux]@AcrossthePond55 I was thinking along the lines of Raikes being a lawyer and a lawyer being needed to annul a marriage, arrange for an adoption, etc. so perhaps a connection with Peggy's father's maneuverings. But the more I think about it, the baby was born in Philadelphia, and if they married in NY, the marriage would have to have been annulled there, and he was in Doylestown (which in that day would not have been as accessible to Philadelphia as it is today). I still have misgivings about him, though.[/quote]
IIRC Peggy originally went looking for the midwife in Philly. Raikes was retained by Peggy to find the midwife after she discovered that the midwife had moved to Doylestown. I don't think Raikes would have had anything to do with the original events, either. But I do agree there is some connection between Raikes, Peggy, and Marian beyond happenstance. Whether that connection happened before or after the meeting on the train platform, your guess is as good as mine.

The marriage wouldn't have had to be annulled in the place of marriage, although I don't think it's been made clear whether they married in NY first or if they eloped & married in Philly. But jurisdiction would be the courts where Peggy was living at the time the annulment was filed.

But I even wonder if back then bigamous marriages were even annulled legally. It may have just been considered a 'void' marriage, ie one that never legally existed in the first place, so no legal action would have been needed.

But I even wonder if back then bigamous marriages were even annulled legally. It may have just been considered a 'void' marriage, ie one that never legally existed in the first place, so no legal action would have been needed.

Good point. But an interesting aspect of the legal situation is that her husband evidently signed a false statement that he was married before and still married. So the annulment proceeding itself is likely void or voidable. Peggy may still be married.

@SenecaFallsRedux

But I even wonder if back then bigamous marriages were even annulled legally. It may have just been considered a 'void' marriage, ie one that never legally existed in the first place, so no legal action would have been needed.

Good point. But an interesting aspect of the legal situation is that her husband evidently signed a false statement that he was married before and still married. So the annulment proceeding itself is likely void or voidable. Peggy may still be married.

It was a false statement? Was the statement actually false or did Peggy's dad simply force him to sign a statement attesting to his bigamy?

In that case Peggy is still legally married. What will that mean for her budding romance with her editor?

Was the statement actually false or did Peggy's dad simply force him to sign a statement attesting to his bigamy?

It's not explicitly stated, but Peggy said that her father bullied him into signing a statement saying he had been married before. That, along with her affect as she was telling the story, suggested to me that that it may have been a false statement.

It's over folks but the ending was brilliant. Very hopeful. Loved the 2 butlers nodding at each other from opposing houses.

the issue with the Russells chef was hilarious

loved the old money v new money at the ball.

I am in awe of the Russells - what a fantastic team they both are. Mrs Russell played them all and won

Really hoping Marion ends up with the Russells son in the next season