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The Gilded Age

669 replies

GreekGod · 25/01/2022 18:47

Anyone watched the first episode ? The US Downton Abbey set in New York in 1882.

Everyone keeps calling it the "US Downton" I loved it. I think possibly even more than Downton.

I would if it really was like that then in New York ie Old Money - v - New Money and the snobbery that came with that

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sluj · 09/02/2022 12:03

Am I right in thinking that Mr R told his wife he was actually going to help them but hadn't yet told them that? I have to say the mechanics of how he could do that using the shares puzzled me a bit?

GreekGod · 09/02/2022 12:04

@Torunette - I didn't think of that ...yes, shunning her as they are now scared of her and the power she holds...you should be a writer...great analysis of how this could go

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GreekGod · 09/02/2022 12:06

@sluj - really ? did he ? I missed that part, will be interesting if he does ultimately help that family

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sluj · 09/02/2022 12:30

[quote GreekGod]@sluj - really ? did he ? I missed that part, will be interesting if he does ultimately help that family[/quote]
I thought he implied that in the conversation he had with his wife afterwards. Could be wrong though.

Torunette · 09/02/2022 13:15

@sluj

Am I right in thinking that Mr R told his wife he was actually going to help them but hadn't yet told them that? I have to say the mechanics of how he could do that using the shares puzzled me a bit?
Russell would have to stop buying shares in his company that come on the market, thus allowing the price to stabilise or even decrease. That means the aldermen aren't on the hook for quite so much money out of their own pocket.

Basically, the aldermen's plan was to short Russell's company's shares on margin and make a tidy profit.

Let me explain ... these things have parts.

A) Their plan was to borrow shares in Russell's company, announce the station was going ahead, watch the share price increase and sell the borrowed shares at the increased price of x.

B) Then they would announce the station wasn't going ahead, and the share price would collapse to x-%.

C) They would then buy those x-% shares and return them to the lender of the shares. In the process, they would pocket the difference between x-% and x.

There then appears to have been an additional plan to then personally purchase (i.e. not borrow) huge numbers of shares at x-%, rescind the rescindment of the station bill, and ride the recovery wave up to infinity and beyond (price x++%) thus making a fortune in the process.

However, Russell skewered them by refusing to allow the share price to collapse by buying all the x-% shares that came on the market. His purchases kept demand at a level, so the price never came down around the B part of the plan. Indeed, it appears to have gone up to x+%

The aldermen are now facing ruin because they will have to return the shares they borrowed and sold at x price by purchasing Russell's inflated shares at x+%. That +% will have to come out of their own pockets and, if they cannot afford it, they will go bankrupt.

Essentially, the aldermen, or the ones that will be left, are now in a position where they can do nothing but rescind the rescindment of the station bill in order to stop Russell inflating the price of the shares by buying all of them that come onto the market, and hopefully they will only be on the hook for x%, rather than x+%.

Or Russell could decide out of the goodness of his heart to stop buying the shares, so the price can stablise.

Did that help? Or did I just make it more confusing? Blush

Notwithittoday · 09/02/2022 13:24

Thank you for explaining that!
I’m quite enjoying this programme

BestIsWest · 09/02/2022 13:26

Thank you @Torunette, that made perfect sense. I was puzzling over that in the wee small hours.

Wbeezer · 09/02/2022 13:33

Yes my understanding was that Russell had decided to stop buying the shares (after telling the aldermen that he would carry on) but was letting the aldermen sweat a bit longer before he told them, deliberately punishing them.

1910username · 09/02/2022 13:34

@Torunette, thanks a lot.

I was a bit confused and was meaning to watch it again (with subtitles…) to understand.

I didn’t realise that the first shares had been borrowed.

Torunette · 09/02/2022 13:37

@Notwithittoday

Thank you for explaining that! I’m quite enjoying this programme
It is basically a fictional version of happened in 1863 between Cornelius Vanderbilt and the City Council over the New York and Harlem Railroad.

On April 23, 1863, the city council of New York City approved Vanderbilt’s request to build a brand new line along Broadway to the Battery. The day after that, the stock surged to $75, and soon to $100 in a few days. This authorization made the Harlem not only the one railroad entering New York City but also the only line running the length of Manhattan Island.

Daniel Drew, one of the Harlem’s directors and also an old rival of Vanderbilt in steamboat business, started to talk to the city council. Drew told the members at the city council that, if this franchise were repealed, the Harlem stock would plummet. So if they were going to short the stock, they would make a lot of money. So all of them borrowed as much money as possible and began shorting the Harlem’s stock. After Vanderbilt heard about their scheme, he began buying fearlessly.

On June 25, 1863, The city council repealed the franchise as planned and also issued an order to prohibit the construction of the new Harlem line along Broadway to the Battery, the members of the city council sat back and cheerfully watched the stock dive. It fell from $110 to $72 on that day. Unexpectedly, on the next day, the stock started to rise.

Vanderbilt had cornered the market — he had bought every outstanding share of the Harlem. By the end of the day, the stock rebounded to $97. It reached $106 the day after.

Out of despair, the members of the city council repealed the repeal in hope of reconciling with Vanderbilt. But the stock continued to rise. The city council people begged him to stop, but He said no.

Vanderbilt wanted to teach them a lesson. The stock continues to rise, $150, $170, $179. There is no upper limit for losses. Their money was bleeding but there were no available shares for them to buyback.

By the end of summer 1836, Drew begged Vanderbilt for mercy and he allowed Drew and the members of the city council to buy the stock back from him at $180 per share.

From medium.com/diamond-hand-investing/the-original-big-short-squeeze-f1f0f23b54a2

You can't do this now, btw. It's illegal ... but people still do try to get away with it.

sluj · 09/02/2022 13:38

Thank heavens for @Torunette. 😁 Thank you

Torunette · 09/02/2022 13:45

I should clarify that last sentence.

You can't use your civic position to create conditions that enable you to directly financially benefit. Today's version of the aldermen can't pass or rescind laws in order to personally financially profit from it.

Wbeezer · 09/02/2022 13:46

The hairdressing is amazing too, very authentic. I'm old enough to remember when period dramas tended to have costumes and make up overly influenced by current trends.

GreekGod · 09/02/2022 13:57

I never expected Bertha Russell to be so supportive of her husband - he basically told her that by buying the shares, they could be ruined financially and lose everything but she encouraged him and told him that they could do it all again

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BitcherOfBlakiven · 09/02/2022 13:57

I’m not a fan of Bridgerton or Downton but I’m loving this.

Nixon’s voice is like she’s trying to do a child’s voice?! That’s how it sounds to me anyway Grin

GreekGod · 09/02/2022 13:57

fantastic summary @Torunette, thank you

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SilverGlassHare · 09/02/2022 14:06

I'm loving their relationship actually. He's ruining bazaars and lives because people have snubbed his wife, she's encouraging him to gamble their fortune to beat their enemies because she knows they can build it back up again...

BasiliskStare · 09/02/2022 14:36

Oh I think it is hugely watchable and I love Christine B. The dresses and rooms etc. & I think they have the hairstyles well - no compromise on what modern day people would want ( cf Julie Christie in Tess of the D'Urbervilles with Terence Stamp )

One thing DS & I do say to the TV - the characters can be a bit the same as Downton - so the snipey maid , the lovely butler , the aloof matriarch - the gold - digger suitor

One thing I can probably google but anyone any ideas where the outside scenes ( by which I mean the roads & outside of houses - not the park ) are set - they are not real surely - I am guessing a bit of scene building and CGI. The inside scenes look much more realistic.

@Tournette - DH just gave DS a short talk on short selling last night. But the Vanderbilt thing - thank you so much for that - Not sure how popular they are going to be after the last scene. Perhaps he could have hinted a lifeline a bit earlier.

If I heard correctly it was funny to hear JP Morgan being described as new money.

It's a bit of tosh - but enjoyable nonetheless less. I shamelessly say it is an escapist hour and I shall be watching to the end.

GreekGod · 09/02/2022 14:38

Absolutely , The bazaar scene when he just started buying up everything they had was fantastic 😊

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GreekGod · 09/02/2022 14:39

Yes JP Morgan and “those” Rockerfellas were mentioned - seems so funny now when you think of their achievements

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BasiliskStare · 09/02/2022 15:04

@GreekGod & now they are old money I guess - Money + time will make new money into old money - I did enjoy him sticking up for his wife though when everyone had snubbed her. But I reckon she could look after herself Grin

One small point, If I had a bedroom as big as hers - I would have bought a bigger bed even if DH had to be invited in because he has his own bedroom.

GreekGod · 09/02/2022 15:09

@BasiliskStare Yes !! I thought that about her bed too, how funny

i wish they put all episodes together so we could binge watch - I'm off work today as well so would have been ideal

can't wait till next weeks one though - a full hour of fluff

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BasiliskStare · 09/02/2022 16:28

@GreekGod - I'm with you - I wanted to binge watch with a day to spare - delayed gratification is overrated in my book Grin - Fluff of the highest order. - It is never going to get a Nobel prize for literature but once a week it provides some entertainment .

Now can anyone enlighten me to how they film the outsides of the house ? Grin

AcrossthePond55 · 09/02/2022 17:53

Oohhh! My people!!!

I'm in the US so just want to be sure I don't give any spoilers. I just watched episode 3 on 7 Feb, with episodes dropping on Mondays.

Am I OK to post? I remember with Handmaid's tale there was like a week delay in episodes.

Without specifics, I'm really enjoying this series. And I think as far as the old money vs new money it's pretty accurate. One was either one of Mrs Astor's 400 or one was banished to the Hinterlands.

I've always loved Christine Baranski. Cynthia Nixon, I think her voice is to show that she's the 'Timid Little Charity Sister' as compared to her sisters 'Power Matriarch'. Baranski's voice is definitely a 'power voice'.

Weekendssuck · 09/02/2022 17:56

Where can I watch this please?