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The Gilded Age

669 replies

GreekGod · 25/01/2022 18:47

Anyone watched the first episode ? The US Downton Abbey set in New York in 1882.

Everyone keeps calling it the "US Downton" I loved it. I think possibly even more than Downton.

I would if it really was like that then in New York ie Old Money - v - New Money and the snobbery that came with that

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NeedWineNow · 22/02/2022 14:20

I watched the first one with DH last night (so a bit late to the party) and really enjoyed it. DH said he felt quite sorry for Mrs Russell - new money and none of the 'old New York' turning up to her party. We're looking forward to seeing how the stories develop.

UglyModernWindows · 22/02/2022 14:46

I'm really enjoying this! Nice to see older women on lead roles too. I couldn't bear Cynthia Nixon on AJLT but on this she's very watchable. I think her baby voice goes well with the character.

AcrossthePond55 · 22/02/2022 17:27

Just another thought. I felt that Russell's 'handling' of Gladys' suitor showed once again that he's a basically decent man, albeit with perhaps a wee bit skewed set of personal ethics. He could have chosen to simply ruin the young man and force him out of town, but instead he offered him the option of exactly what the young man wanted, a career in banking. Yes, he put Bertha's desires for Gladys above Gladys' desire for this young man but I think he truly believes that Bertha 'knows best' how to plan a successful (ie socially advantageous) marriage for Gladys, therefore he'd feel he did nothing wrong.

The Gilded Age was notorious for arranged marriages between dollar heiresses and impoverished peers, especially if the girl's parents couldn't get a 'top tier' match for their daughter 'locally'. Wouldn't you just love to see a plot line involving Bertha and the Dowager Countess with each separately plotting a match between Gladys and Robert that is most advantageous to their own interests?

NurseButtercup · 22/02/2022 18:24

@Andylion

Have posted that I love Christine Baranskie, and I do, but in this most recent episode it seemed like they were trying to make her the Dowager of The Gilded Age. She spoke in one-liners said was a joke. It was off-putting.

If Marian thought Peggy needed shoes, she could have given them to her at her aunt’s house. If she really thought Peggy’s family was poor, did it not occur to her that Peggy might find it awkward that she just show up?

I thought Bertha was really cold about the man who had committed suicide.

If Marian thought Peggy needed shoes, she could have given them to her at her aunt’s house. If she really thought Peggy’s family was poor, did it not occur to her that Peggy might find it awkward that she just show up?

A lot of people are making this comment, slavery was abolished in 1865, I think this program is set somewhere between 1890- 1900??? Marian doesn't regard Peggy or her family as her equal in education, social standing or class, which reflects how black people were regarded, racism was at its peak. Don't forget Peggy isn't allowed to enter the Van Rhijn house via the front door.

So no, Marian's antics with the old shoes and turning up unannounced line up are not a surprise. Peggy's father is part of the new middle classes, he's a pharmacist I think they said. He possibly has vivid memories of being a slave from his early childhood years, hence his frustration with Peggy and how abrupt he was towards Marian.

GreenClock · 22/02/2022 18:28

I’d like to see them try to marry off Gladys to a duke. It would be realistic for the time. Wouldn’t it be great if a very young “Cora” made an appearance!

That said,I like the Gladys character and wouldn’t want to see her go.

Marian is the least interesting character for me tbh.

OhNoItGotMeToo · 22/02/2022 18:46

Dare I say it .... I'm enjoying it more than Downton!

Really not sure why, maybe it suits the frame of mind I'm in at the moment?

NurseButtercup · 22/02/2022 19:16

@AcrossthePond55

Just another thought. I felt that Russell's 'handling' of Gladys' suitor showed once again that he's a basically decent man, albeit with perhaps a wee bit skewed set of personal ethics. He could have chosen to simply ruin the young man and force him out of town, but instead he offered him the option of exactly what the young man wanted, a career in banking. Yes, he put Bertha's desires for Gladys above Gladys' desire for this young man but I think he truly believes that Bertha 'knows best' how to plan a successful (ie socially advantageous) marriage for Gladys, therefore he'd feel he did nothing wrong.

The Gilded Age was notorious for arranged marriages between dollar heiresses and impoverished peers, especially if the girl's parents couldn't get a 'top tier' match for their daughter 'locally'. Wouldn't you just love to see a plot line involving Bertha and the Dowager Countess with each separately plotting a match between Gladys and Robert that is most advantageous to their own interests?

Hadn't thought of that, so for the wealth & power/influence Mrs Russell is striving for, I reckon she will either send Gladys to Europe to marry the son of a peer. Or marry an upcoming promising presidential candidate or a senator in a state that will benefit the Russell empire.
BeaLola · 22/02/2022 20:02

@OhNoItGotMeToo

Dare I say it .... I'm enjoying it more than Downton!

Really not sure why, maybe it suits the frame of mind I'm in at the moment?

Ditto

Love it

AcrossthePond55 · 22/02/2022 20:35

@NurseButtercup

I think a politician would be very acceptable to George, as long as he's amenable to 'helping out' dear old FiL. But I think Bertha has her heart set on an Old New York Money 'society' marriage for Gladys. That would greatly narrow the field as far as politicians go, although the Knickerbocker set had a few political families like the Roosevelts and the Van Cortlandts.

Would Bertha consider Oscar Van Rhijn acceptable? He's a Knickerbocker so would be Gladys' (and her) entree into the 1st level of society. But would he be acceptable to George? He can smell a double-dealer 20 miles off. I think George wants Gladys to be happy above all else. Problem is that Bertha's idea of being 'happy' is being accepted in all the best circles and George is deferring to her when it comes to Gladys.

SuperbOwls · 22/02/2022 20:36

I'm really enjoying this. It's pure escapism.

Just watched the latest episode and I feel that possibly Peggy had a baby her father made her give up for adoption? And she's trying to track him/her down with the help of the lawyer? Poor Gladys will definitely get married off to some destitute duke and be miserable. I can't tell if the lawyer has good intentions or not, but I'm starting to suspect not.

GreenClock · 22/02/2022 21:02

I think that Gladys may marry Agnes’ son and end up in a sexless marriage once she’s produced a couple of children. I think that her clever father can see through him though ….

SilverGlassHare · 22/02/2022 22:05

I am really enjoying this, certainly as much as the later seasons of Downton, or even season one. But it’s not a patch on the writing in Gosford Park. I rewatched that today and the end scenes especially when Helen Mirren’s character is crying! It’s so good.

Anyway - I do think the lawyer is dodgy. No well-bred man in that era would kiss a young lady like that! I’d suspect it’s meant to be a red flag though perhaps it’s intended to indicate he’s a hot-blooded passionate rule-breaker who will sweep her off her feet and they’ll live happily and unconventionally ever after together…

Still love the Russells but I wish Bertha would bring Gladys ‘out’. Not just for Gladys’s sake, also because I long to see a ball!

NurseButtercup · 22/02/2022 23:04

I agree that the lawyer bloke is dodgey, my spidery instincts thinks he'll get Marian into a compromising situation that could ruin her reputation and try to blackmail her.

@AcrossthePond55

On paper Oscar Van Rhijn would definitely be a good match to meet Bertha's aspirations. But I'm hoping that George Russell will hire an investigator to look into Oscar Van Rhijn and put a stop to that coupling. Poor Gladys.

@SuperbOwls

Ooohhhh no, not an adopted baby. Don't you think Peggy's father would have either disowned her or married her off by now?With her father I'm sure he definitely wouldn't let her have the amount of freedom she's enjoying to swan around and do her own thing.

I'm looking forward to next week - I'm annoyed I can't binge watch in one go.

Polyanthus2 · 23/02/2022 06:13

Why aren't the older women going grey - Surely Agnes is getting on a bit - are they 50s/ 60s or young 40s played by older actresses.
Perhaps they had ways of colouring their hair but it seems unlikely.

The dresses are a bit brash compared to Downton. But with money being so important probably the more elaborate your dress the richer you appeared.
Interesting that Peggy's situation and job is accepted by some but not by snooty others. A tricky part to write now..

SapatSea · 23/02/2022 11:07

I agree Polyanthus the older women should be grey. I think really bright dyes and clothes were a big thing in the mid/late Victorian era as chemical dyes took over and the market for natural dyes collapsed. Fashion changed as more muted colours made a comeback in the Edwardian period. I guess rich people in New York could afford shiny new clothes in a bright, recently discovered synthetic dyes (and wanted to show they could afford bright colours that had yet to fade).

I saw an "educational" programme with my son about it all a few years back. In the 1850's William Perkins was trying to make artificial quinine to treat malaria and discovered aniline (synthetic) dye instead in unnatural really bright shades of purple and mauve. He experimented with adding tannins and found the dye could take to cotton and other fabrics to be much more colourfast than traditional natural dyes and didn't fade so badly in the sun. The dye shades became really popular and so other brash colours followed. With colours coming into and then going out of fashion.Black used to fade really quickly to brown and this aniline dye didn't so black clothes became really popular in the victorian age as did all sorts of bright colours as fashion trends. They must have seemed magical.

BestIsWest · 23/02/2022 12:01

I read an excellent book about this years ago called ‘Mauve’

Wbeezer · 23/02/2022 12:36

I was about to pop up and mention "Mauvine" but I was beaten to it. Just had a few times looking at lots of photos of amazing dresses though.

SilverGlassHare · 23/02/2022 14:19

I must admit, I thought that the previous poster was refering to grey hair rather than grey clothes!

Very interesting re the dyes! I wonder if it's a way that people used to differentiate the old (tranditonal, maybe less wealthy) guard and those with new money too.... Like WAGS wearing Burberry-branded everything vs Sloane-rangers in aged riding boots and their granny's pearls?!

AcrossthePond55 · 23/02/2022 16:10

They did have hair dyes back then, mostly Henna-red or black. But I'm sure they were probably pretty 'noticeable'. And I have a feeling that dying one's hair would have been considered 'fast'.

Considering that it wasn't unusual for 16 yr old girls to marry, Agnes & Ada may be younger than we think. Agnes could easily have had Oscar at 17 or 18 which would make her early 40s, assuming he's around 25. Ada could be even younger. I didn't start going gray until my late 40s.

It's the problem with having a 44 year old actor playing Oscar and a 30 year old playing Marian. Yes, they do look younger than their ages, but neither of them looks as if they're their character's probable age, say 25 for Oscar and 20 for Marian. It 'skews' the way the rest of the cast looks in relation to them. But I suppose that's what 'suspension of disbelief' is all about.

Interesting that Carrie Coon (Bertha) is 41. Brett Ritson (Oscar) at 44, is playing her 17-18 yr old daughter's 'age semi-appropriate' suitor.

@NurseButtercup IDK about George having Oscar investigated. He knows he has the $$ to keep Gladys living comfortably without handing any cash to Oscar and he's from an old established 'top drawer' family, which is all that Bertha cares about. And what Bertha wants, Bertha gets. Now, if George should hear any rumors about Oscar's sexual escapades that might be a different story. BUT, since George is not 'socially accepted' it's highly unlikely that any unsavory gossip would reach his ears from a 'top drawer' source. In fact, they'd probably consider it quite a laugh if George's daughter married Oscar.

SapatSea · 23/02/2022 18:53

Love all the "mauvine" chatter. I originally thought that Larry was a shoo in as a love interest for Marian (although I'm not sure if they are meant to be of an age) but now I wonder if Larry might be gay and if Oscar marries Gladys, Oscar might make a play for Larry? I think the Oscar actor is too short and looks too old with obviously dyed black hair to make him look younger for the part. He's a horrid character. I think it's really unfair that Bertha married for love (or did she see George was a great prospect?) but doesn't necessarily want her DD to be happy. I'd like to know more of the Russell's backstory and just how poor they started out. The series is really growing on me - it's tosh but lovely easy viewing and a second season has been commissioned.

I think you are all right - Miss Scott did have a secret baby (JF seems to love those). What does the servant who went to see her horrible mother do in the Russell household? Do you think she'll crack and kill her mother?

On hair dye. I'm sure I read in George Gissing's novel The Netherworld (1889) that the working class father in his 40's used very obvious and poorly done black hair dye to try to make himself look younger to get labouring work. (IIRC the dad also does that in the later Ragged Trousered Philanthropists novel by Tressel) and Anne of Green Gables famously tries to dye her red hair "raven" and it ends up green! So it did exist but I agree with others that it would be seen as a fast or lower class thing to do.

SapatSea · 23/02/2022 18:58

Does Becky Sharpe dye her blonde hair a bit red in Vanity Fair (when she goes to Brussels with her husband for the Waterloo campaign)and her friendEmmy is shocked to see it when she arrives?

MarshaBradyo · 23/02/2022 19:02

Enjoying this as my favourite actress from The Good Wife is in it - Christine Baranski

Great outfits

Not great on names but lead younger one reminds me a bit of Princess Di

Really like Mrs Russell and her new friend

UglyModernWindows · 23/02/2022 22:21

Christine Baranski is 69, I just assumed she's supposed to be her age? The Oscar actor is really too old at 44 unless he's suppose to be a middle aged bachelor rather than a young man? Why not cast someone in his twenties into the role??

I loved the Red Cross woman!

I think Mr Rikes is dodgy too and agree with PP that he's trying to engineer Mariam to compromise herself somehow. A man with honourable intentions would have approached her aunt to propose rather than do it in the secret.

I love all the chat about hair colours and clothing colouring methods!

UglyModernWindows · 23/02/2022 22:23

Mr Rikes the actor also looks like young Rick Astley Grin