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Murder at the Cottage

375 replies

MrsPelligrinoPetrichor · 21/06/2021 23:01

Documentary on Sky Crime, I think it is 5 episodes.

Omg it was so good ( if a programme about a murder can ever be 'good')

I can't remember anything about this in the news at the time so I was watching it with fresh eyes.

I started watching it, DH came in to get a coffee, sat down and he was hooked too which is rare.

Anyone else seen it?

OP posts:
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6
irishfeminist · 08/07/2021 18:02

I know someone who grew up in that hippie/boho expat community in West Cork (and who knew Ian and Jules) and she said a lot of the "artists" were just heavy-drinking dropouts permanently on the dole. Which must be grating for locals to hear people like Bailey being so snooty about them. It is a strange insular bubble too - my friend and others I've met were born and grew up there but have entirely English accents.

Glumdalclitch · 08/07/2021 21:46

I know that world to an extent, and yes, it’s certainly fair to say that west Cork since the 60s has been a destination for more than its fair share of wasters, misfits and dropouts, and of those, a fairly high percentage are originally from the UK, compared to other nationalities who’ve also settled. IB’s not that unusual in that context — fucked up life in his home country, drifted in with nothing, thought it was a place to reinvent himself (bohemian poet rather than thrusting young journalist) and stayed. Martin Graham, the ex-army guy who said the police gave him weed to entrap IB, wasn’t dissimilar.

SisterMichael · 08/07/2021 22:00

I don’t understand why he didn’t leave West Cork when he could (before the EAW). I’m not saying he should have had to leave but he wasn’t a local and if half the people in the area think you’re a murderer it must make for an odd place to live.

irishfeminist · 08/07/2021 22:08

Yes he seems to enjoy the notoriety. And there are people who will buy his brownies or whatever out of morbid curiosity. I thought him labelling his pickles "Old Bailey's" particularly tastelessAngry

Glumdalclitch · 08/07/2021 22:55

I honestly think that being a murder suspect has become his life’s vocation. He was just another broke drifter trying on identities, costumes and playing with poetry — which he genuinely appears to take seriously, despite the fact he has zero talent and doesn’t rework anything — until he became the chief suspect. Then he was launched onto major media interest, arrests, libel cases, campaigning, extradition attempts, two law degrees, podcasts and documentaries etc etc. And it also sounds as if it kept him and Jules together for an artificially long time, as she says she thought it would imply his guilt if she left him.

It’s basically given him the recognition he’s clearly always craved, at some level. There’s a moment in the ‘West Cork’ podcast where he boasts of having sold one of his self-published poetry books to Jeremy Irons and Sinéad Cusack at the market, and the presenter asks ‘Did they know who you were?’ and IB actually scoffs at the notion that they might not.

JemimaTab · 09/07/2021 03:44

I think anyone who could mete out the brutality that Ian did to his partner - on multiple occasions- is capable of murder. That isn’t to say that he murdered Sophie. But he was extraordinarily violent to his partner Jules, and was convicted of violent crimes against her. In episode 3 of the Netflix series, this is brought up and he says something like “it takes two to tango”. In other words, he was attempting to blame Jules for his attack against her, in which she sustained serious injuries including large chunks of her hair torn out, damage to her eye socket, her lip torn from her jaw, etc. Anyone going onto the Relationships board on MN to report something like this would be advised in no uncertain terms to LTB or else he would kill her. In the libel case, one of Jules’ daughters said that Ian propositioned her when she was 18. Apparently the reason that Jules finally split from him was that her daughters (and grandchildren) would not visit when he was there. This man does not have any redeeming features.
In his multiple interviews with the press, he gives every impression of relishing the limelight, and I think part of him thinks he has somehow outsmarted the authorities. Which, judging by the Netflix series, does not seem to have been too difficult as the police really fucked up the investigation. But it seems to be a psychopathic mindset.
No, it doesn’t mean he murdered Sophie. But the evidence was never gathered and so I doubt she will ever receive justice.

dayswithaY · 09/07/2021 08:06

I've now seen the Netflix doc, Sky doc and listened to the podcast and I'm still undecided. All I can think is:

  1. Marie Farrell is a red herring. Why, after all these years would she not give the name of the man she was with? She is still with her husband, they moved to a very remote place where no one knows them as she is notorious due to the court case. She contacted police, not the other way round, then completely retracted everything. She's either an attention seeker who saw nothing or made it up for a reason known to her.
  1. Gardai are a disgrace for letting Sophie and her family down. There is no way that case could not have been solved with the evidence they had. Even if they wanted to stitch up Bailey, as he claims, they failed at that too. No idea what their game was.
  1. The Italian woman now living in LA was one of the most convincing witnesses, in my opinion. She met Jules' daughter and spent Christmas with the family, saw the scratches on Bailey's hands and what she thought could be his black coat soaking in bleach. I found her very convincing.
  1. Jules knows the truth but she will never speak about it.
Glumdalclitch · 09/07/2021 08:26

@JemimaTab

I think anyone who could mete out the brutality that Ian did to his partner - on multiple occasions- is capable of murder. That isn’t to say that he murdered Sophie. But he was extraordinarily violent to his partner Jules, and was convicted of violent crimes against her. In episode 3 of the Netflix series, this is brought up and he says something like “it takes two to tango”. In other words, he was attempting to blame Jules for his attack against her, in which she sustained serious injuries including large chunks of her hair torn out, damage to her eye socket, her lip torn from her jaw, etc. Anyone going onto the Relationships board on MN to report something like this would be advised in no uncertain terms to LTB or else he would kill her. In the libel case, one of Jules’ daughters said that Ian propositioned her when she was 18. Apparently the reason that Jules finally split from him was that her daughters (and grandchildren) would not visit when he was there. This man does not have any redeeming features. In his multiple interviews with the press, he gives every impression of relishing the limelight, and I think part of him thinks he has somehow outsmarted the authorities. Which, judging by the Netflix series, does not seem to have been too difficult as the police really fucked up the investigation. But it seems to be a psychopathic mindset. No, it doesn’t mean he murdered Sophie. But the evidence was never gathered and so I doubt she will ever receive justice.
His violence was utterly appalling, and his attitude to it almost equally so — actually, I thought it was very revealing of a certain DV perpetrator mindset , especially the way he kept comparing it to an Elizabeth Taylor/Richard Burton folie à deux — but against that (in terms of it meaning he was a more likely murderer of STduP), there seem to be absolutely no indications he was ever violent to anyone other than Jules.

The press speculated about violence being the cause of the end of his first marriage, but the police interviewed his ex-wife and she said he was never violent towards her, despite already drinking heavily. The DPP report also contains interviews with two women who say he made a pass at them while drunk at house parties in west Cork, and say that when they rejected him, he didn’t turn nasty.

Which obviously isn’t conclusive in any way either, but doesn’t constitute a demonstrable pattern of ‘violence towards women’. Only one woman, alas for her..

Like a pp, though, for someone so often branded a ‘womaniser’, I notice there’s a remarkable lack of gossip, press stories or police investigation of any pre-Jules west Cork relationships, or any affairs he had outside his relationship with her. Talk is rife in places like this, so hard to see how it could have happened and been kept quiet.

I suspect that the failure to extradite IB to France had a lot to do with her decision to finally leave him — I’m not sure I buy the ‘daughters and their children won’t visit’ thing. Her daughters, entirely understandably, always hated IB — violent, alcoholic cocklodger who made a pass at one of them aged eighteen and still living under the same roof, and made their mother notorious — and have had periods of total estrangement from her for years and years. Plus at least some of the grandchildren aren’t so very young — at least one is six or seven — so grandchildren aren’t a new thing.

irishfeminist · 09/07/2021 08:54

I know women can find it hard to leave abusive relationships but I found it hard not to judge Jules. She brought a violent alcoholic wastrel into her children's lives and they will have been deeply affected by it. We know of three incidents of serious violence but I've no doubt there were more. He was obviously using her and living off her - she's from a wealthy background and inherited money to buy her house and smallholding. Even now she's kicked him out she's buying him a caravan to live in. I just don't understand how you could put your kids' needs after someone like him.

Glumdalclitch · 09/07/2021 09:17

@irishfeminist

I know women can find it hard to leave abusive relationships but I found it hard not to judge Jules. She brought a violent alcoholic wastrel into her children's lives and they will have been deeply affected by it. We know of three incidents of serious violence but I've no doubt there were more. He was obviously using her and living off her - she's from a wealthy background and inherited money to buy her house and smallholding. Even now she's kicked him out she's buying him a caravan to live in. I just don't understand how you could put your kids' needs after someone like him.
I know exactly what you mean, I have to actually tell myself ‘Stop, because you’re getting very close to victim-blaming’. I gather a previous relationship — the father of one or more of her daughters — was also violent. I can’t remember the source, but there was some reference to him (the previous partner) kicking her in hobnail boots. So I’m torn between deep pity for someone who’s lived with that for decades and impatience with someone who chose to inflict IB on their children’s lives for so long.

I was about to add that, as the one with the money, home and career, it wasn’t that she had no means to leave, but from some remark she made in the Netflix doc about him having nowhere to go if she kicked him out,I suspect that her being the moneyed partner actually kept her with him.

JemimaTab · 09/07/2021 09:36

There does seem to have been a pattern of him trying it on with various women. In Nick Foster’s book, there’s a case of a woman sleeping over at Jules’ cottage after a party, who woke up to find he’d got into bed with her. Plus there are extracts from his diary where he says something like Jules was “fine as a sexual partner” but he hankered after a more intellectual/spiritual connection, or some such crap. But without Jules he had nowhere to live.

MrsPelligrinoPetrichor · 09/07/2021 09:50

Urghhh he's such a catch,poor Jules. I do judge anyone who stays with an abusive man when they have children,all I can think is they are so battered emotionally they can't think straight and make good decisions.

OP posts:
Glumdalclitch · 09/07/2021 10:54

@JemimaTab

There does seem to have been a pattern of him trying it on with various women. In Nick Foster’s book, there’s a case of a woman sleeping over at Jules’ cottage after a party, who woke up to find he’d got into bed with her. Plus there are extracts from his diary where he says something like Jules was “fine as a sexual partner” but he hankered after a more intellectual/spiritual connection, or some such crap. But without Jules he had nowhere to live.
Yes, that incident was referenced in the DPP report, presumably from an interview, but what I took from it was that when the woman told him to get out, he did, he didn’t persist or get violent.
dayswithaY · 09/07/2021 10:57

I'm the same, I've been fighting hard not to blame Jules but her behaviour is questionable. The West Cork podcast was made a good few years ago and her attitude in that is very different to now. They were a united front, Jules defended him in every way - including the domestic violence which she just waved away. She was adamant he didn't murder Sophie. She was by his side for every court appearance.

Whether she has now changed her mind or just been worn down by years of abuse, Jules had a duty to voice any concerns she may have had years ago but chose not to. The truth is, she could never verify his alibi. It was a case of "he woke me up at 8am with a coffee". That doesn't prove anything and it never did.

There's information on the podcast about Jules previously being in an abusive relationship, with a local man I believe. They also talk about his ex wife and his journalism career which seemed to come to a halt before he arrived in Ireland.

placemats · 09/07/2021 12:00

Some women never leave an abusive relationship for fear of their lives. Jules said she trusted him but not when he was drinking. She suffered terribly from his abuse and had children as well. Her mistake was falling in love with him and letting him into her home. I don't put any blame on her. Ian Bailey is to blame and he should remember the consequences of his actions.

Ian Bailey went into a woman's bed, who was a guest, and that in itself is a huge red flag. He ignored the boundaries and thought he could do that. I mean what decent man would go into the bed of your guest?

I agree that the most compelling evidence came from the Italian friend of the daughter of Jules who visited the family home as the death of Sophie was announced.

Ouch44 · 09/07/2021 12:27

I've not had a chance to watch all of this but this YouTube video of 4 behaviour specialists analysing IBs interviews is pretty damning. They say they are not going to comment whether they think he is guilty or innocent but it quickly becomes clear they are all convinced he is guilty . As am I.

The lack of evidence at the scene though. Maybe it was lost when her body was left outside and police bungled the investigation.

They sum his personality up as a Malignant Narcissist. Which could be why he has stuck around the area.

JemimaTab · 09/07/2021 14:19

@placemats

Some women never leave an abusive relationship for fear of their lives. Jules said she trusted him but not when he was drinking. She suffered terribly from his abuse and had children as well. Her mistake was falling in love with him and letting him into her home. I don't put any blame on her. Ian Bailey is to blame and he should remember the consequences of his actions.

Ian Bailey went into a woman's bed, who was a guest, and that in itself is a huge red flag. He ignored the boundaries and thought he could do that. I mean what decent man would go into the bed of your guest?

I agree that the most compelling evidence came from the Italian friend of the daughter of Jules who visited the family home as the death of Sophie was announced.

The bed incident was awful. From the account I read, the woman said she was woken by his arm around her and then his hand on her leg. She fled to the main house and Ian and Jules had a huge argument. As Ian continued to stomp about ranting and raving outside, Jules apologised to the woman and said something like “he can do worse”, and showed the woman bruises on her legs and body.
sammylady37 · 09/07/2021 14:44

Can I ask something that’s puzzling me a little. Lots of people on this thread and others I’ve read keep saying that it is unlikely to have been Bailey as there’s no forensic evidence whatsoever to link it to him, and they go on to emphasise how violent and rage-fuelled an attack it was, so how could he not have left evidence behind etc. Except, AFAIK, there was no DNA from anyone else at the scene... so whoever perpetrated this did commit a frenzied, brutal attack and leave no trace, so it’s possible to do that, therefore IB is not ruled out on grounds of no forensics. Someone did this, but left no blood etc. (This makes sense in my head, hope it does when read by someone else!)

And I know there’s now talk of unidentified male DNA on her boots, but if I’m correct that info is quite recent?

JemimaTab · 09/07/2021 14:49

I agree about the evidence. Retrieval of DNA evidence was not as sophisticated back then anyway, but also Sophie’s body was left outside under a plastic cover for 24 hours while they fetched someone down from (I think) Dublin, just before Xmas - so it was probably wet and windy to boot. In those conditions evidence would inevitably have degraded. Plus what little potential evidence they did have was also lost (the gate for example).

WeatherToday · 09/07/2021 15:10

It's easy to blame the local garda as being 'country bumpkins' incapable of investigating a crime like this.
However I'm fairly certain that it wouldn't have been their decision to leave the body outdoors until the forensics team arrived. That decision would have been taken by somebody much more senior, probably in Dublin, or by the forensics team themselves.

SisterMichael · 09/07/2021 15:16

Definitely makes sense sammy.

Weather I don’t think it was the forensics team. They just did what they were told by the police (can’t remember the seniority) - it’s in either the podcast or the Sky documentary.

placemats · 09/07/2021 16:12

The pathologist was John Harbison. He was the only pathologist in Ireland at that time. He insisted the body be kept in situ until he got there.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Harbison_(pathologist)

And to add to the 'country bumpkins', those in Dublin would have thought the gardai siochana in the area as that.

placemats · 09/07/2021 16:14

sammy you make perfect sense and I think that too.

placemats · 09/07/2021 16:24

Sorry to keep posting.

It was a cold and frosty night, still wind.

Those who say why wouldn't you hear the noise of a woman screaming whilst being murdered? I've often slept through a thunder storm whilst others in the house were woken by it and vice versa.

I don't dismiss the fact that Sophie's home was broken into previously and new locks were installed. Sophie trusted her cleaner and other near neighbour. She was an intelligent woman who went out into the night and was brutally murdered.

SisterMichael · 09/07/2021 17:00

Sorry Weather and placemats I got mixed up, I’ve watched both documentaries and the podcast and it’s all blurring together!