SCD '20 #11: HRVY DS RMB! Rambo, re-mob? No, it's the first rumba!

[PolkadotsAndMoonbeams]

Previous thread

Has MEasie had a couples dance?
No, I don't think so. Oh Christ, she's going to do waftorama isn't she?

It would be nice to see someone do traditional jazz.

It’ll either be a showtunes gurnfest or feetwafting.

Cant wait.

Can you imagine Gorka doing contempowaft, though?

I feel she could waft enough for the pair of them kiwi

@Maireas

We're you a Bay City Rollers fan, Lady B'Stard? all the girls in my class were. They had tartan scarves tied around their wrists and very, very wide flares.....

Oooh! I well remember `the 'Rollers!

Were you teaching in the North East? It was a hotbed of Bay City Rollerdom up here.

I can remember when a newspaper exposed that all of thees supposedly teenaged boys are in their 30's, married with kids almost as old as their besotted fanbase!

There were teenage girls weeping in the streets.

I have mixed feelings on drag, but think some people use it as an excuse to be nasty. I don't have a problem with men dressing as women to perform per se. I've been to plenty of shows at all boys schools, with boys taking female parts, I find some Lily Savage stuff very funny, and don't mind the Two Ronnie's sketches when they're dressed up as women. Probably because they're poking fun at a 'character', and they did the same dressed as men. I think the pantomime would lose something without a dame, but then, part of the joke is that they're a man, and pantomime has a lot of traditions. But I really didn't like drag race, despite a lot of my friends loving it, it wasn't funny or clever (apart from some of the make up, I admit, I couldn't do anything like that).

That's how I feel about drag too, Polkadots. There have been lots of entertainers who dressed as women - I mentioned Danny La Rue earlier - and I loved Les Dawson and Roy Barraclough, and the Two Ronnies, Lily Savage, Dick Emery and Kenny Everett - and the Monty Python Team but there never seemed to be any spite in them. Same with pantomime dames - in set same way that a Principal Boy is always a girl, the Dame (and Ugly Sisters) are always men and there is no malice in it. They dress up for a role - and took the mickey out of everyone and everything in the same way. There was a lot of irreverence but no undertones of malice.

It's hard to explain, but there is definitely a quantifiable difference between them and the new generation of drag. It's like when bullies do or say something hurtful and when the victim complains say "It's just a joke - you've got no sense of humour". And it isn't a joke, and you know it's not a joke - there is a blade in it - but explaining how and why it offends just make it sound . . . harmless.

My mum phoned me about 9am one Sunday morning & asked if I wanted her to get me a Bay City Rollers CD. When I said 'Christ, no'. She said 'but you were a fan'. Yes mum. When I was FOUR! I'm in my bloody 50s now.

I'm not sure about the old vs new or 'good' vs 'bad' drag argument.
While I love Les Dawson and Kenny Everett, I think it COULD be seen as 'malice' or hurtful, no less than someone else doing it. Arguably more so in Dawson's case, as he was generally playing older, fat, 'unsexy' (huge uniboob being hoicked up etc) and not attractive (with his gurning). He was essentially saying this is what women – or some women – look like and it's OK to laugh at them for their appearance. I'm still not sure how I feel about all this, but I'm not sure that ISN'T hurtful.

Schaden I'm a teacher now, but was a teenager at the height of the Bay City Rollers craze. The girls in my class all loved them! I was never a fan - I was into Barbra Streisand! (I know. I am still a fan, 45 years on).

I meant to add, this was in rural Derbyshire!

I’m older, fat, not blessed with beauty and deeply unsexy with a fairly expressive coupon.

I don’t find Les cruel for that and I grew up with women - just like he portrayed - who loved it.

I just find that the modern day interpretations of women are not a true reflection of most women and the fish comments are insulting. Even if it is supposed to be funny.

I saw (and still see) women who were exactly like Cissie and Ada. Uniboob, headsquare and all.

I don’t see anyone flapping round The shops in a waft of sequins and glitter with full faces on and a bosom and arse that would withstand an impact with a small bus.

I take your point though that some could find it cruel. It is a personal thing.

And the glam women (the few) were like Elsie Tanner.

Most in my neck of the woods my age and older are living with their faces untouched by knife and needle.

The younguns with the crinkle free faces are huge in number.

I think the women with character in their faces have a beauty to them that the filler full will never have.

Oh - forgot to say that I bloody loved Anton and Diane. I got teary. I am shattered though

It wasn't the same Parps.

At that time a lot of elderly, working class women looked and spoke like that - Dawson characterised rather than parodied them. Les's Ada wasn't far removed from Ena Sharples: Roy's Cissie was the same, but with a few social pretensions. These were strong working class women - they raised large families on next to no money and often with useless husbands who drank their wages. They were real matriarchs. You saw them in the industrial North, in the Cockney families of the south, in the Glaswegian slums - in every built-up, industrialised area it was women who kept their families together and while Les etc poked gentle fun at them, there was a lot of affection in it. They weren't dressed the way they were for people to laugh at their ugly clothes etc - they were dressed like that because that is how those women dressed. Women got fat because they had a lot of babies and a diet heavy in fattening, filling carbohydrate; their clothes were unflattering because they didn't spend money on themselves - many was scarce and it went on rent and food; they looked old before their time, and plain, because they had hard lives and the most make up they ever had was a smear of lipstick and a bit of "4711" or lavender water when they went out with the girls occasionally for a milk stout .

It was art imitating life (or working class town life, anyway).

@TheLadyOfShallnott

I’m older, fat, not blessed with beauty and deeply unsexy with a fairly expressive coupon.

I don’t find Les cruel for that and I grew up with women - just like he portrayed - who loved it.

I just find that the modern day interpretations of women are not a true reflection of most women and the fish comments are insulting. Even if it is supposed to be funny.

I saw (and still see) women who were exactly like Cissie and Ada. Uniboob, headsquare and all.

I don’t see anyone flapping round The shops in a waft of sequins and glitter with full faces on and a bosom and arse that would withstand an impact with a small bus.

I take your point though that some could find it cruel. It is a personal thing.

Cross post Shallnot - you posted while I was writing.

The women I knew who fitted Les's Adaloved it, too.

I do get that they were based on real women (I had relatives from the industrial Midlands and overcrowded Glasgow tenements). And yes, I know some of these women were ultra-capable and basically powerhouses.
I'm still not sure, though, that it's much more laudable/acceptable than other kinds of drag. It's still poking fun. And I wonder if it's not just as hurtful (or more) because, by your argument, it's laughing at women for things that are beyond their control, like a cheap diet/no money for clothes/ageing early.

I think it comes down to the "can't explain the difference, but can feel it" Parps

There is definitely a different emotional vibe from these. Possibly because Les Dawson etc poked similar fun at the men in those situations. I don't know - but I do know that I never felt any cruelty in Ada and Cissie - and yet it comes off in waves from some present-day drag queens.

@SchadenfreudePersonified

It wasn't the same Parps.

At that time a lot of elderly, working class women looked and spoke like that - Dawson characterised rather than parodied them. Les's Ada wasn't far removed from Ena Sharples: Roy's Cissie was the same, but with a few social pretensions. These were strong working class women - they raised large families on next to no money and often with useless husbands who drank their wages. They were real matriarchs. You saw them in the industrial North, in the Cockney families of the south, in the Glaswegian slums - in every built-up, industrialised area it was women who kept their families together and while Les etc poked gentle fun at them, there was a lot of affection in it. They weren't dressed the way they were for people to laugh at their ugly clothes etc - they were dressed like that because that is how those women dressed. Women got fat because they had a lot of babies and a diet heavy in fattening, filling carbohydrate; their clothes were unflattering because they didn't spend money on themselves - many was scarce and it went on rent and food; they looked old before their time, and plain, because they had hard lives and the most make up they ever had was a smear of lipstick and a bit of "4711" or lavender water when they went out with the girls occasionally for a milk stout .

It was art imitating life (or working class town life, anyway).

This is 100% what I wanted to say, but so much more eloquently and insightfully expressed than I could have mustered.

I think it comes down to the "can't explain the difference, but can feel it"
Yes, agree – I can 'tell' there is sort of a difference too, but looked at more analytically I do still feel uncomfortable with it.

GrouchyKiwi

Can you imagine Gorka doing contempowaft, though?

Definitely not. I can imagine it being a musical theatre type thing, assuming Maisie’s got CC.... has she?

She hasn't done one yet, and I can't see her turning it down on the basis of purity of dance. Although I'd probably vote for her if she did.

Is it possible that Maisie will get an AT I wonder...?

Possible bluffin

With two dances though there is probably going to be another uptempo one.

Cant wait to see what we are going to get.

And I’m off. Because I’m needed to work finals night - well the early evening. And so no guarantee I’ll be home.

Meh.

Shallnot That’s a shame.

I’d forgotten they’re doing two dances... you’re probably all finding out the details on ITT this very minute so I’ll get off the thread and catch up