Handmaid's Tale. EPISODE 3 (season 3). Channel 4. 9pm 23/6/19 UK pace. NO SPOILERS

[OriginofSpecies]

Welcome to the new thread to discuss Episode Three (season 3) of The Handmaid's Tale.

We are watching UK pace, Channel 4.

We have only seen episodes one & two so far.

Please NO SPOILERS.

And also, you can just ignore my entire comment about the Dissent of Man (which is an album by Bad Religion) because I didn't even twig (due to C Lawrence accent) that he said the Descent of Man, which is in fact a book by Darwin.......

Still stick by my idea that he's testing/training her though, to see if she can really be of use to the resistance. So far she's been a bit wild and that's not going to help them, she needs to learn to slow down and stop getting herself into trouble.

Myusernameismud
I really like your interpretation of Commander Lawrence's actions. Makes sense. Although I don't think his motivations are completely altruistic! He does seem to have the potential to be cruel. Although perhaps we've been conditioned to expect that they are all cruel.

I can't make my mind up about him either.
Perhaps he knows that he'd be vulnerable if he was too transparent, so he maintains the Gilead ideal of being cruel and strict. I'd like to believe he's seen the implications of the society he created and is trying to atone, but he knows he can only do it from the inside and so he needs to ensure he stays at the top of the food chain so to speak.

The other option of course is that he really is cruel, exceptionally cruel and allowing the Martha's to build the resistance only to stop them/dob them in it later is a power play. But I don't want to believe that.

I do really think he's enabling them, but also reminding them of the desperate need to not be too obvious, not do anything drastic and above all comply!

Or perhaps he was telling the truth in that the resistance allows people to hope as without hope there is nothing, which is more likely to lead to full scale revolution and overthrow of the regime. So really, he's still acting in his and Gilead's best interests.

That said, I do hope he's good and will ultimately help bring down Gilead from the top and just said that to keep June on her toes.

I agree with you both!
I don't think he's good but time will tell...

So far she's been a bit wild and that's not going to help them, she needs to learn to slow down and stop getting herself into trouble.

I think she’s started doing that, questioning if all she has done had the hoped for consequences or made things worse.

I think one of the things that makes this good (if not so much this series so far,) is that it's not black and white, people aren't all obviously good or bad, but more complex than that.

people aren't all obviously good or bad, but more complex than that
Quite. Schindler (as in Schindler's List) was a bit of a wide-boy and no saint but he saved a lot of Jews in WW2.

It was confusing that Commander Lawrence said he saved Emily because she could contribute a lot to the world. Other commanders have said that having a baby for Gilead is the handmaid's contribution to the world and they aren't capable of anything else.

I'm conflicted when it comes to Commander Lawrence. Self preservation or enjoying his power to decide lives. Or even a bit of both

Funnily enough in the Descent of Man, Darwin argues that the female is dominant in choice of mate.

The more I ponder, the more I definitely think we saw some kind of rebirth of Serena through fire and water.

What about the argument June had with CL where he said he was replenishing the planet for her daughter? He sounded pretty convinced then that he was doing the right thing, I thought. But maybe like Serena he thinks it’s gone too far now.

I thought he was talking about environmental issues. Like you say, maybe there were some ideas that had value initially but have gone much too far.

My feeling was he was pro rotating fertile women between the men in the name of population growth, but he didn't buy in to the religious/puritanical aspect.

I don't think he's all the way evil, but I definitely don't think he's 'good' either. Remember when Emily, who he respected, was there? He did nothing to reassure her he wouldn't rape her, and made invasive comments about her fgm. I don't think his misogynist comments to June were a front at all.

It was confusing that Commander Lawrence said he saved Emily because she could contribute a lot to the world.

Yes, and he did say "the world", didn't he, not "Gilead".

I agree Ria. His comments to Emily were creepy as fuck.

C Lawrence is definitely not a good man. He may be useful to the resistance and/or June specifically but that doesn’t make him a good person. He very clearly has zero consideration for the suffering he causes in the pursuit of realising his vision. His ego is enormous.

Maybe CL wrote papers/books suggesting that criminals be sent to clean up the toxic areas. He could've been contacted by some of the Gilead founders & entered into what he thought was a hypothetical thought experiment about how this could be incorporated into a strict, religious society. Before he knew it, the government was overthrown & he was a commander. Now he's got to play their game to survive. He does seem like a misogynist to me but he hasn't shown any interest in the religious aspects. I don't think he's good or bad, just surviving.

Serena hasn't left Fred, she's just visiting her mother... Convalescing after the trauma of losing the baby & her house burning down. Nothing odd about that... Not until she's still there a year later & keeps finding reasons not to go back! Her mum did put her in a dangerous situation by telling the group about her marital issues though. Now there's witnesses who could say she was considering leaving him. He could quite easily claim she's insane & should be sent away. Poor Fred has been doing his best to protect her from herself but her mind's been corrupted, because women are oh so feebleminded, & despite his "corrections" she's escalated her behaviour & she actually orchestrated Nichole's abduction... He's done all he can for & all that's left for him to do is place her in the Lord's hands & pray for merciful judgement on her soul. Fred, of course, should be immediately assigned an obedient wife & a new handmaid so he can fulfil his duty to society by procreating.

Are there any good men? I think Nick's the only candidate, but he was cold with his poor wife (the one who had an affair and was punished by drowning ) and he does what he can for June but I get the sense she feels that he doesn't do enough.

I've watched & read quite a lot of Margaret Attwood interviews and from what I can tell she always maintains that people are neither all good nor all bad, so I think if the series stays true to her style, then no character will ever be clearly a goody or a baddy!

There was a 'good' man, the econo-husband who took June in and that didn't end well for him and his family at all!

There's no good in Fred though is there?
And I don't think the econo-husband was particularly saintly, well meaning maybe but he put his whole family at risk.

Depends how you defined 'good' I suppose. The Econo-husband did a good thing by harbouring a fugitive, like lots of Germans did when the Nazi's were persecuting Jews. They risked their lives and those of their families because they thought they were helping others survive. Was that risk for their families good or bad?

I see Fred as weak and a follower. If he were an officer in an army on the side that we valued or liked and he was a weak follower, we would probably think he was a good guy, but he is weak and follows as a commander in a regime we all despise, so we despise him too.

That's what I love about Margaret Attwood, she forces you to see all the shades of grey.

Very well put @MargoLovebutter - completely agree with you.

I agree that Fred is weak but I don't think he's just a follower. He's a hypocrite. He was one of the founders of the regime but he thinks he's above the rules. He loved Serena and was inspired by her and her ideas - but has willingly repressed, punished and raped her. I think he's been corrupted by his power, but he's not necessarily been following anyone or anything. His behaviour towards the women in his household happens behind closed doors. I suppose he could be a regular at Jezebel's because they all are and he wants to "join in" - but I got the impression that he was pushing the boundaries by taking June, and others hadn't done that. He turned her into his mistress, that's a selfish and cruel man who takes advantage of his power, not just someone who is passive and easily influenced by others.

Good points AnotherEmma but Fred thought he was doing June a favour taking her to Jezebels, so that she could catch up with Moira and so that the two of them could 'make love', as he had some crazy notion that she actually fancied him.

Only in the sense that he had an inflated ego and it pleased him to think that he had the power to bestow "favours", it excited him to get her all dressed up and he did it with a view to getting illicit "sex" (actually rape but they pretended it was consensual) in return.

So not exactly noble motivations.

From where we stand, there is nothing noble about his motivations, but if you are a Gilead believer, then you may see that differently. You may think that he is helping save the human race from extinction.

Most people in North Korea devoutly believe that Kim Jong-Un is their supreme leader and that those who protest against him do not have the best interests of North Korea at heart. They believe in prioritising the needs of the country over those of the individual and genuinely think that Kim Jong-Un is a perfect leader. They will dob in those who they don't believe sing from the same hymn sheet because they love their country.

Here in the West, we see North Korea as a corrupt, totalitarian state governed by an unelected dictator. Who's right?