The Handmaid's Tale Season 2 (UK Pace) - thread 5 - SPOILER ALERT

[CruCru]

Hi all

Here is the next thread for those who are watching The Handmaid's Tale Season 2 on Channel 4. Please don't put any spoilers on this - the other thread (for those in other countries who are watching ahead of the UK) is:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/telly_addicts/3239228-Handmaids-Tale-Season-2-SPOILERS-VIEWING-AHEAD-OF-UK-SREENING

I think I have the most complicated relationship with Serena Joy that I have ever had with a fictional character!

After deciding a few weeks ago that she was the worst person in the world I’m back to feeling some sympathy for her! My heart actually broke a little when she tried to breastfeed ‘Nichole’, and she said SORRY! For the first time ever! The final scene was quite beautiful, and I don’t think that she will turn back from that now, the combination of baby arriving and the execution of Eden is Serena Joys turning point- I hope we see her trying to change things now.

Also definitely think the new commander is going to be part of mayday. S3 is going to be about the revolution!!

(Also really like the pps idea of reading the us pace thread after the final episode!)

Of course it was right! That's the whole point in Gilead - she has been raised to be a breeder. Her whole job is to have children.

I wonder if she's also in danger if she doesn't have children? If Econowives are monitored & might be replaced if they're not fertile?

I don't know but i imagine it doesn't matter too much if eco couples don't breed (except to them personally of course) they are just worker bees really.

'So, do you think Commander Waterford is now losing quite a lot of status with his unruly household, despite the baby?'

He is definitely aware of it as a risk.
I did love the way they spun June's giving birth alone as 'my handmaid is so amazing, she managed to birth the baby all by herself!' which would definitely make it look like God was smiling on them (as well as leading to baked goods for Aunt Lydia - my other favourite detail this episode.)
I thought they would be damaged by the lack of a proper birthing ceremony but they managed to turn it round and the skill with which they did that helped show how they managed to get so high up in Gilead in the first place.

I thought they would be damaged by the lack of a proper birthing ceremony but they managed to turn it round and the skill with which they did that helped show how they managed to get so high up in Gilead in the first place.

In the same way that when June escaped before, they pitched it as "taken against her will". And now they're the parents of June & Nick's daughter.

The Waterford household is all built on lies & there's no way they're the only ones.

Interesting debate about whether Eden was raped. I tend to think yes, because her 'consent' hasn't been based on informed choices or coming to understand her own body and its needs and desires. But I don't think Nick raped her as he was also co-erced. So can there be such a thing as institutional rape, with no intention to rape on the part of the individual man, but the effect is rape? And it also calls the whole idea of 'consent' into question, especially for young girls - there are all sorts of coercive or potentially coercive forces in their lives, including peer pressure of one sort or another, which shape what they think they want. No clear or easy answers here.

It can't be rape tho - if Eden was old enough to be married - ie essentially given away by the State to Nick, then she was over the legal age of consent. And she would have consented, definitely. Nick was coerced, on pain of being exposed as 'gender traitor, or not enthusiastic enough about Gilead', or whatever.

can there be such a thing as institutional rape

I think so. If two children are encouraged to engage in sexual activity they are abused by the adult who encourages it, not by each other. The state of gilead is a repressive, abusive state so they can be said to have facilitated rape.

It can't be rape because Eden wanted Nick to have sex with her. She was taking advice from June about how to encourage Nick to become more interested in her.

Children can 'want' to have sex, that doesn't mean they have capacity to consent to sex.

Erm ... This is Gilead we're talking about you know - it's not real! It's all part of the narrative.

She was a willing instigator of sex, because she wanted to have a baby. That's the role that Eden has been brought up to fulfil. And no doubt she is very aware (as would they all be) of a possible fate for her if she can't conceive/give birth.

What was really sad and poignant about the whole thing is that she obviously also wanted to be in love/have Nick fall in love with her.

It's only 'rape' to us because to us she is a child and cannot consent. In Gilead, she would be 'of age' as soon as she was fertile, so no longer a child and ready to be married off and used to breed.

In some parts of the world child as young as 10 or 12 are married off. We don't think it's right, but they do. We can't apply our UK laws to their lands, so we can't to Gilead either.

I wasn't talking about the law
Since the law of gilead says that habdmaids have to submit to the ceremony does that mean they aren't raped?
Since the law says that the babies belong to the wives does that mean they aren't stolen?
Ethics == the law of the land. Some truths are objective IMO. Children cannot consent to sex even if they have been groomed and believe they want to have sex.

Yes but we only believe Eden is a child because in this country we believe that a child is under the age of 16 (or 18). But who is really to say what age a teenager becomes responsible for deciding for themselves? There is no sudden awakening on one's 16th birthday.

Eden was definitely raped. But I don't think Nick is a rapist. It's all a bit confusing really.

But so interesting to have the discussions.

I wish the teenagers I teach had got into it. There would be SO much to discuss. But they don't ever watch stuff on the actual TV.

I don't understand why you would say she was raped when she instigated sex, and took several attempt to persuade Nick to have sex with her!

The only reason it would be rape would be according to our laws, that she was under age.

In the context of Gilead it's a totally different thing.

But BIWI in the context of Gilead everything is different! June is not raped, in that case. The Commander is not a rapist. The only reason it's rape is according to our laws.

Eden has been groomed since she was small to believe that she must have sex so that she could have a baby.

This is why it's all so fascinating!

Because rape is still rape even if the laws condone it!
The laws of gilead proscribe the 'ceremony' for handmaids. That is still rape.

There is no way any 15 year old child who has been groomed by a totalitarian baby cult into sex with a much older man can be said to be giving informed consent.

Rape isn't just a matter of 'illegal sex'
Rape is sex without informed consent. Regardless of local laws. No informed consent = rape.

Would you say the same if she was 16?

Why do you say 'without informed consent'? Eden knew what sex was about - Serena (I think it was - or maybe it was June?) asked her if she knew what to expect on her wedding night. And she knew. She said so.

She was the one who was instigating sex with Nick, and she was very upset because he didn't want to sleep with her.

It wasn't that long ago in this country and pretty much all countries around the world where girls were raised to be wives who would bear children. They were not raised to expect any pleasure from sex or even really understand what was involved. They were often married off at young ages and had no idea what to expect on their wedding night. No one thought or considered that they were 'raped' because that's what they had been reared for and that's what marriage involved.

Thankfully, that's not how it is any more (her in the UK at least), but it does go to show how cultures change and how our definitions change with them.

I think I have the most complicated relationship with Serena Joy that I have ever had with a fictional character!

She’s such a brilliant character. So well written. Like you I keep wavering.

Since the law of gilead says that habdmaids have to submit to the ceremony does that mean they aren't raped? - in the law of Gilead, no. They aren't raped. That would make the Commanders rapists! And to rape is wrong - that is why it is a 'ceremony'; to make it seem more acceptable.

To us, yes of course it's rape. Of course to us Eden was raped, she's under the age of consent - to us. In a slum in India/Philippines/village in Africa they would not call it rape.

Informed consent is a modern thing. Not so long ago, the age of consent in UK was lower. And rape was not possible within marriage.

Exactly!
I was answering BIWI and others who were puzzled as to why I stated Eden was raped since she apparently consented. I was using the ceremony as an illustrative example of how laws can sanction rape.