Anyone watching Madeleine McCann ten years on?

[spottysuperted]

They're framing it slightly differently now.. 😧 interesting from the bbc...

(I haven't seen the sky news doc either, I just saw it mentioned on the aibu thread. I do have it here and can watch and find out if anyone wants me too )

lol maybe it needs its own thread. Time to get on with life!!

noeuf what an eloquent post

My post was an answer to ceto who was basically saying that leaving children in those circumstances was widespread and seen as normal at the time, and that it's this case that has changed people's ideas about the, erm, practice. IMO that is incorrect.

People's ideas ("people" includes all police forces) about leaving the children are going to colour the perception of the parents, in terms of the questions of neglect and intent. So it is a relevant point to the investigation.

Me too, Namey, me too....

I.e it wasn't the official terms of the brief.

Is there a theory that the apartment was broken into, Madeline woke up, wandered into the living room, started to scream/cry, burglars panicked and killed her (possibly accidentally as they tried to quieten her) and then removed her body.

This seems more likely to me than her parents having done anything or a deliberate live child abduction. And would fit in with the dogs evidence. Yet it never seems to be discussed?

Why would burglars remove the body? And the McCanns and their supporters believe that the alerts by the dogs are false alerts so that's one reason why it probably never gets discussed.

I think bodies need to lie in place for at least an hour or so before the scent is picked up by the dogs.

My post was an answer to ceto who was basically saying that leaving children in those circumstances was widespread and seen as normal at the time

No, that is not what I was "basically saying".

Why would burglars remove the body?

Panic? Attempt to cover up evidence? Who knows?

McCanns believing it to be false might be their (understandable) desire to believe that she is still alive. They desperately want to believe in the best case scenario- that she was abducted and given to a loving family who have brought her up as their daughter ever since. Any other scenario is terribly distressing.

The burglar or burglars would have seen sleeping children when they broke in through the window (unless they came in through the open back door- probable). They may have hurt Madeleine but if that happened there's a high chance she'd have been found by now. Also the burglar theory would have taken more than the apparent 30 minutes or 15 minutes between checks. I think if the parents came clean about the fact that they only checked every hour then the police might have more to work with. But I think given that the burglar had apparently only 15-30 minutes to do that, not panic, clean up and hide all evidence then it's very unlikely. Also if it was bumbling local burglars who had an hour plus, they'd still probably have caught them by now. Unless we're to believe that some local and possibly not well educated/smart burglars have outsmarted two police forces for 10+ years. Although I remember something about a now deceased Angolan drug addict. As he wasn't even mentioned, I guess they've ruled him out too. I remember his family's outcry when he was implicated.
They are now looking for a woman who was acting suspiciously! After 10 years they are now looking for a woman, no doubt we'll soon get some photo fit of a large older woman in a tent dress or that original posh spice lookalike. It never ends. Poor Madeleine

Of all the empty apartments in the evening, why would a burgular choose one that not only has sleeping children in it, but one that is being checked every half an hour?

I can understand an intentional child abduction, but burgulary gone wrong just isn't plausible to me.

Also, why would a burgular climb through the window when the door was unlocked. Any burgular would have watched the apartment before going in. Unless they are completely opportunistic.

If the McCanns were keeping the Hope diamond on their coffee table to make it such an opportunistic burglary, surely we would have heard that by now?!

I finally got to watch this today on i player.
A theory that is on the internet ( and put forwards in another documentary a few years ago) was that Madeline wandered off that night, possibly trying to reach her parents. The dogs were able to follow her scent to the end of a pathway out of the apartment , then nothing. I cannot recall which programme this was on, but the English police were involved by then and did a reconstruction.
This wasn't mentioned at all on this programme.
IF anything had happened to her inside the apartment, surely there would have been a lot more evidence , blood maybe? So many questions and this Panorama programme didnt have any more answers than any of the other things i have watched about her disappearance over the years. It is a very sad case.

There are plenty of ways to die that don't leave blood. Poisoning, head injury, suffocation, hell even some sort of natural causes. Not saying any of these happened here, just that they do exist.

People's ideas ("people" includes all police forces) about leaving the children are going to colour the perception of the parents And there you have it in a nutshell. The police arrived, couldn't understand how someone could leave their children alone, refused to even countenance the idea of a break-in (even though there had been a spate of identical break-ins in the same block), who knows what else they overlooked in the early vital moments after Madeleine's disappearance. Couldn't bear that the Mcanns brought in the media - shedding a poor light on Luz and Portugal - and turned the spotlight on the family. Not unreasonable to consider the family, as others have said when kids are harmed or snatched it often is by someone known to them - but NOT ALWAYS. It doesn't seem the most likely scenario in this case since, apart from anything else, it relies on all the Tapas 9 being on board. There was an excellent post upthread about Ben Needham's family being spared this speculation by the fact that his disappearance happened before the advent of social media. He is an excellent case in point - wandered off and was hit by tractor. In the end, despite years of speculation the explanation was quite mundane.

Real life is often quite random like that. It doesn't follow a strict prescription of cause and effect driven by straightforward and clear motivation. But people don't like the idea of reality filled with random events.

TheFirstMrsDV has it right above, about why people are so keen to give the McCanns a kicking:

I think the bottom line is that people enjoy doing it.

Reading Pamala Fenn's statement, she states that the night before she heard crying for an hour and 15 mins which only ceased when the parents came back.

So they hadn't been doing regular checks the night before then? Leaving your child in a distressed state for over an hour is unthinkable. Surely they would have known upon returning that she was in a right state having been crying for over an hour? Yet they still thought it was a good idea to do it again the following night?

I think that's what makes the whole situation even worse, she wasn't left alone as a one off. They did it night after night despite knowing she was waking frequently. This is why it's so hard to have sympathy for them.

According to Kate McCann in her very own book, in her very own words - the night before Madeleine was reported missing she claims to have got upset with Gerry on account of him getting up abruptly and leaving her and her friends in the bar. I don't think it's a huge leap to suggest that the reason why she got annoyed was because she didn't her night out to end at the point and that she wanted carry on socialising. Mrs McCann says that this occured at 11.50pm. She further suggests that her annoyance with him is the reason they slept in separate beds that night.

So, to recap - just before midnight Gerry McCann returns to their apartment (Kate doesn't say what time she followed). This means that they left their three kids - with a combined age of less than seven - for something like four hours, with (apparently) checks every 30minutes or so.

Then, the next night, they do it all again. Bonkers.

I think that's what makes the whole situation even worse, she wasn't left alone as a one off. They did it night after night despite knowing she was waking frequently. This is why it's so hard to have sympathy for them.*

Yes that's it for me too. I don't spread vitriol about them but I don't have much sympathy for them either. My sympathy lies with Madeleine, a defenceless 3 year old child. What ever happened, she was massively let down by her parents on this holiday and has ultimately paid the price for it.

LillianGish in most missing people cases the police strictly monitor what information the media has. Too much information can either mean that genuine tip offs cannot be distinguished from fake ones and/or a kidnapper with such a recognisable child is more likely to panic. If the British police had told them not to go to the media they probably would have listened, their arrogance and assumption that foreigners are not good enough meant they did what they wanted and defamed the Portuguese police in the process. I cannot believe what they say about the police in those early days, especially as locals and tourists have come forward to contradict their story and with no motive or benefit to do so. They went to the media with the abduction angle from the get go.

You're right, Ben Needham's case is exactly why ruling out and ignoring other possibilities shouldn't be done, for years it was assumed Ben must have been kidnapped too but that was only because Ben's family initially assumed he had wandered off and reached that conclusion after their extensive and frantic searches for him. By contrast Kate and Gerry told the police Madeleine had been taken. Of course people flame them, it's suspicious, even if it was innocent and there's nothing in it. Many people, including senior policemen cannot let that go.

Have the McCann's ever been charged with anything? My understanding of (UK) law is that there's no law against leaving children but if children come to harm as a result of being left, then they can/should be charged with negligence?

I said earlier, having seen the layout of the resort, I might have left dc, but actually, I do find it odd that you'd go on a family friendly holiday and not eat dinner with dc, but that is a very cultural thing. If the (group of) parents had been more "common" dc would have been at the table with their gadgets or running riot round the tables. If the group as a whole felt this was a reasonable way to carry on, I can see why it would have seemed "normal"

Hmm good point Emphasise, maybe they can't be charged without evidence that Madeleine has come to harm.

Surely "missing" is harm, even if she is fit and well somewhere?

Seems strange that despite all the antagonism between Portuguese police and the McCann's, there hasn't been any attempt to prosecute them for "something".