A world without Down's syndrome?

[Hulababy]

Anyone else watching?

Interesting so far

Rock - in my opinion your last point is the key one in this debate. There should be no attempt to persuade a woman to take the test when she has declined it.

And in my experience this doesn't happen.

And some think rolling out the new earlier test is a rather sinister move, by the government, to invest money into preventing people being born with disabilities, through 'screening out' and aborting, rather than investing money and research into supporting people with disabilities. I'm not sure what I think regarding this perspective...

Ok, that makes more sense, Francis.

Sorry, that was ambiguous- I mean that women are not pressured to take the test at any time.

That is good, Izzy.

Francis but she made that clear that was her opinion. She also pointed out the advantages of the test (fruit, veg and sieves scene).

I see, Rock. I was co fused because you seemed to be referring to difficult medical information. This is what we are talking about.

when people like SP seek to impose their view on other women by denying them their right to chose there is a real danger that they will succeed. And once the right to chose becomes curtailed, one need only look to countries like Poland to see what can happen next.

Francis, like SP? She is an actress. She has no professional expertise in the field. I would be more concerned with medical professionals treating patients from a biased standpoint, offering biased advice and information than an actress' campaign.

Bertrand I was coming from an understanding that there would have, most probably, been different leaflets produced in the past or by different health authorities and probably handed out, not so long ago, possibly still.

Francis this is an issue which is bigger than women's rights, though. Patient choice, governmental cost cutting exercises eroding this and support for people with disabilities comes into it.

Whilst I care, deeply, about women's rights, this does not preclude me caring about the other issues involved or prioritising women's rights over these other issues.

I felt pressured into having cvs but as I don't have a peer reviewed research paper backing up my experience I'd imagine it has already been dismissed as I type this sentence. Denying women's lived experiences seems very unfeminist to me.

Hcp do say terrible things to patients, I've had some awful things said to me when I've not nodded and agreed or asked a question. I doubt I'm particularly unusual.

The nhs leaflet is fine as a general overview but it's not enough imho to make a decision about what to do regarding a wanted baby. I'd want proper stats regarding all the health conditions related to ds and ideally to speak to a consultant specialising in pediatric disability. A random midwife with a leaflet wouldn't cut it. Ime we were left in a room with a book and a leaflet whilst several hospitals were rung round to see who could fit me in for cvs asap. The urgency and perceived panic from hcp contributed to the pressure I felt under.

Nipt is great because women won't need to go through what I did. However women who don't want termination after a high risk result should be offered the same respect for their choice as the women that do. Hundreds of posts back everyone was up in arms that women's choices to terminate were being perceived as being questioned by a woman off the telly, but apparently it's a duty of care for a hcp to continually question a woman's choice to keep a child or refuse a medical procedure.

It's really disappointing that it feels this is now about intellectual point scoring and about being technically correct than listening to what other people have to say.

I agree wholeheartidley, Handbag and do think your experiences with HCPs are very relevant to the issues the documentary raised.

"Denying women's lived experiences seems very unfeminist to me."

I'm not denying women's lived experience. There are crap HCP. What I am worried about is some people's bad experiences being taken as the norm, and being used to control other women's choices.

How do you feel about my experience of two high risk pregnancies- where I was asked several times about testing, asked whether I had changed my mind but where I felt that was entirely appropriate?

In fact the consultant said to me "OK- I'll make an amnio appointment for you tomorrow morning. Go home, think about it, discuss it, then decide whether to come in or not."

Thank you for clarifying that Bertrand. This is a point which is much more understandable to me and I wish you had made it sooner. I hate it when people are made to feel like their bad experiences are not believed, are not important or are not relevant. It is minimising.

X post. My last post in reference to your 14:41 post.

Bertrand can I ask whether/why you found being repeatededly asked whether you had changed your mind helpful?

Francis the documentary, which is being discussed, did not overtly state that SP felt that women should not be given the choice. What campaigns SP is involved in was not the primary point of discussion, although these may inform on her biases, which she admitted.

IMO issues which affect each other and are linked (such as the ones I mentioned upthread) should be looked at together as well as separately. Issues occur relationally and contextually, not often in isolation.

Of course HCPs make mistakes but it is important to acknowledge mistakes, learn from them and not just dismiss them as rare occurrences.

"Bertrand can I ask whether/why you found being repeatededly asked whether you had changed your mind helpful?"

Well, I suppose it depends what you mean by repeatedly. I was certainly asked several times during the period between neuchal translucency and amino cut off. And yes, I did find it helpful. Nothing wrong with having your certainties challenged.

And I did actually say that there are crap HCPs ago