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Telly addicts

A world without Down's syndrome?

663 replies

Hulababy · 05/10/2016 21:12

Anyone else watching?

Interesting so far

OP posts:
specialsubject · 12/10/2016 09:47

Again - Phillips spoke at an anti-choice rally and is all over the spuc website.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 12/10/2016 10:31

special It doesn't matter what SP's views are on abortion per se anyway. It is actually really dismissive of the issue at hand to claim this is 'just' about abortion when the conversation is much more about how people with disabilities are welcomed into our society. It is about the ethics of aborting people because they are different. But sadly it's very typical of the population at large not to see this issue as even existing.

There is actually more to life than women's choices.

Thunderwing · 12/10/2016 12:51

Cards on the table; I have a child with DS who was diagnosed post-natally.

I have been asked more times than I care to recall "Did you know"? I have started to respond to this by asking if they think I should have terminated had I known. Most of the time, this stuns people and they mumble something and move on. Some (particularly the older generation I've noticed) have said, "Well, of course you would have terminated, why wouldn't you?"

This is the point of the program, this is the problem in society. Even one of the previous posters said:

Very few people will choose that path of continuing a Downs pregnancy because it's a bloody difficult path full of unknowns. Not many people will actively choose that kind of future for themselves. I know I wouldn't have

It's assumed you won't want a child with DS but it must just be truly fucking awful. And god forbid that those of us who are actually living it day to day tell you it's not awful, it's not a disaster. We're obviously living our lives with rose-tinted spectacles and are the exception rather than the rule.

whattheseithakasmean · 12/10/2016 12:55

I think your comment about the older generation rings true. My mum sincerely believes that any woman who does not abort a foetus where an abnormality is detected is selfish and immoral. She thinks it is selfish to bring a child into the world to suffer. i assume this is based on what it was like for people with disabilities in previous generations, as she is a kind woman. I think/hope that things have moved forward considerably nowadays.

BertrandRussell · 12/10/2016 12:59

"And god forbid that those of us who are actually living it day to day tell you it's not awful, it's not a disaster. We're obviously living our lives with rose-tinted spectacles and are the exception rather than the rule."

I don't think that at all. The problem is that you won't believe me when I say that. Which is, when you think about it, a bit ironic.......

Thunderwing · 12/10/2016 13:23

Bertrand, forgive me for my sensitivity - I feel like I've had to defend myself, my choices, and the life of my precious little girl an awful lot in the last week.

Izzy24 · 12/10/2016 14:17

Thunderwing - I am always amazed by the personal remarks people think it's ok to make.

As a general point, in my experience until now about a third of the pregnant women I care for decide not to have screening for DS.

Screening for the other trisomies has not yet been offered for a long enough period of time for me to assess a figure. It seems as though a greater proportion of women are accepting screening for all trisomies now even though consent for each is taken separately.

I am scrupulous in the information I offer to promote awareness of the wide range of experiences of DS.

In the event of DS, or other trisomy, being diagnosed women in my location will be carefully, sensitively supported to make the decision which is right for them at that moment in time.

I do know this may not always be the case - I remain appalled by Lynne Chitty's remarks to SP - but I do believe that in the majority of cases HCPs do their utmost to offer information and support for the decision made by women.

I uphold women's right to terminate their pregnancy.

That doesn't mean that I don't weep when I'm involved in some terminations. How could it be anything other than sad? And the woman undergoing that procedure needs, and is entitled to, the best possible care. Just like any other woman.

I'm bowing out of this thread now, because in spite of the extremely thoughtful, thought provoking and insightful posts by many posters I echo Bertrand:

'The problem is you won't believe me when....'

Thunderwing · 12/10/2016 14:31

Izzy24 thank you for your post, I do appreciate that the life of a HCP is not always easy and I know that the good ones far outweigh the bad. You sound like a good one Smile

I have had experience dealing with people who have had stillbirths and I have wept with them too, it's difficult to remain professional when your heart is breaking for someone.

My midwife cried when my daughter was born, she felt so sorry for me. I wish I could go back and tell her that there was nothing to be sorry for - it's only an extra chromosome after all, there are many many women who have to go through far worse with their children.

BertrandRussell · 12/10/2016 14:38

"Bertrand, forgive me for my sensitivity - I feel like I've had to defend myself, my choices, and the life of my precious little girl an awful lot in the last week."

You haven't, you know. You have made your choice- that's wonderful. That's what this is all about- allowing people to make their own choices about their own lives.

Thunderwing · 12/10/2016 16:00

You haven't, you know. You have made your choice- that's wonderful

My dd was diagnosed postnatally, 'choice' was not something I had to consider. But I'm glad you think it's wonderful, I just hope you didn't actually mean to come across so condescendingly.

Thunderwing · 12/10/2016 16:04

Also, unless know me IRL or on FB it's incredibly dismissive of you to suggest that I haven't had to defend myself.

specialsubject · 12/10/2016 17:12

Phillip's stance on abortion is up to her, and I defend it even though I dont agree. What I dont like is people who say one thing and behave to the contrary.

And yes, bluntly, it is about aborting a foetus that is different. Because the person making the inescapable lifetime commitment gets to choose. Not a decision that anyone takes lightly.

I wonder if we had a pill that could guarantee that no embryo would be conceived with a chromosomal disorder, would that be an ethical problem?

BertrandRussell · 12/10/2016 17:20

Sorry, I meant you haven't had to defend yourself on this thread.

Have you ever considered that maybe people are well intentioned and kind and no, most people wouldn't be deliberately condescending and dismissive?

Thunderwing · 12/10/2016 17:57

Of course I have Bertrand, most people are intrinsically kind and good.

It can be difficult to interpret the true tone of comments left on online forums, they can so often be misinterpreted... the joy of t'internet Wink

CoteDAzur · 12/10/2016 18:06

"It is about the ethics of aborting people because they are different."

It is not possible to abort people. One person cannot live inside another.

If it is ethical to abort for whatever reason (and it is), it is a given that abortion for a genetic disorder is also ethical.

gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 12/10/2016 18:31

It is not possible to abort people. One person cannot live inside another.

Says who? Are you a different life form if you get into a plane?

As a matter of fact, the unborn baby is kept very separate from the mother within her body. They are very, very separate beings (and will die if that's compromised).

gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 12/10/2016 18:31

Are you going to answer my earlier question cote?

CoteDAzur · 12/10/2016 20:21

What earlier question, gone? I would be happy to help but wonder if you will get much out of my answer, given that you still say stuff like "aborting people".

gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 12/10/2016 20:26

This reply has been deleted

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CoteDAzur · 12/10/2016 20:30

"Are you a different life form if you get into a plane?"

is that sentence supposed to be meaningful? Confused Do you not know the difference between a person and an inanimate object like a plane?

If you don't understand what I mean by "One person cannot live inside another" you might wish to look up the concept of personhood.

CoteDAzur · 12/10/2016 20:33

What "at the time"?

What the hell are you talking about? Confused

Thunderwing · 12/10/2016 20:47

The concept of personhood has been disputed forever, and the world's brightest minds have been arguing about it for just as long. I'm not sure the good people of MN are going to come up with a definitive answer on the subject, and we most assuredly are not all going to agree.

gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 12/10/2016 21:09

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

CoteDAzur · 12/10/2016 22:34

Sure, why not descend to personal attacks. That always works well in a debate Hmm

PlentyOfPubeGardens · 13/10/2016 08:16

I've been reading around a bit and thinking quite a lot. This might be quite long.

There is proper evidence that women and families are poorly supported around screening, diagnosis and subsequent decisions, whether they continue with the pregnancy or terminate. I found this Parliamentary Inquiry into Abortion on the Grounds of Disability which outlined the issue (among others) in 2013 and made a number of recommendations. It's shit if nothing has changed since then but not surprising, given the current economic climate. We need to do something about this.

A big chunk of the parliamentary enquiry is about whether the current time limit exclusion for TFMR constitutes disability discrimination and what changes should be made to the law. There is a bill going through parliament at the moment which would remove the exceptions for late TFMR. SP has tweeted a campaignin support of this bill. The Don't Screen Us Out campaign, which SP also supports, doesn't mention the bill but is 'lead by Saving Downs Syndrome' - an international organisation that is most definitely not pro-choice. This article on their website is an eye opener.

I don't think someone can be described as pro-choice if they are simultaneously campaigning for a lowering in the time limit for TFMR and against a test that provides earlier, safer, more accurate results, not only for Downs but for other conditions that really don't bring joy to anyone.

I'm concerned there is so much emphasis on NIPT while this bill is going through parliament with barely any attention.

Most of the rest of the world is not as pro-choice as the UK. It's worth keeping an eye on international pressures and less-than-transparent agendas.

There's a lot of talk about the voices of people with DS being missing from this discussion. There's another group whose voices are even more seldom heard - women who have had TFMR, especially those who have terminated late. There have been a couple of posts on the recent threads, and the woman in SP's doc (who I do think was treated appallingly) and that's all I've come across. If 90% of women opt for termination, where are their voices? Why are we only hearing from the 10%?

If we want to reduce the number of TFMR, for Downs or any other condition, we need to listen to the women who have opted for termination, not just the ones who have opted to continue. We need to listen to their actual reasons and we need to not dismiss them out of hand as disablist or poorly informed. We need to make it OK for them to tell their stories too.

I've been thinking hard about what my concerns would be if I was in this situation. The major thing for me would be that services and support are really not great a lot of the time and are rapidly getting worse. Before making the positive decision to have a child with a disability, I would want to ensure I had sufficient means to plug the ever-widening gaps. If we want more women to feel OK about continuing a PG with a diagnosis we absolutely have to address this.

The example of Iceland is interesting but I'm not sure how relevant it is. They have a tiny, very homogeneous population and have a stated aim of eradicating Downs - very different from the UK. Someone crunched the numbers and 100% terminating for a Downs diagnosis in Iceland works out at around 4 women per year. 4 women whose individual circumstances we know nothing about. If we want to use Iceland as an example, it could equally be used to show that a dwindling population of people with Downs does not necessarily mean poorer provision.

The word 'biased' has been used a lot about the documentary. I think maybe a better word is 'manipulative'. I think SP is well-meaning but her doc was ill thought out and divisive. I'm still pissed off about that but have calmed down a lot. There are a lot of difficult discussions that need to be had and a lot of hurt feelings on all sorts of 'sides'. I'm not sure it's possible to have sensitive, respectful discussions while tiny children are encouraged to wave emotive placards at us. IME that never helps in any debate.

I'd like to see lots more positive programmes about people with disabilities and their lives. I'd like to see documentaries about best practice in interventions and provisions for disabled people & their families and the difference they make to people's wellbeing. And about where we are falling short in this country and what we should be fighting for, for people who are here now. I think that could make a massive difference.

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