A world without Down's syndrome?

[Hulababy]

Anyone else watching?

Interesting so far

It is a constant refrain of the Pro Life campaign to say that women don't have enough information, that it's all about education, if women only knew......Not just about Downs, but about abortion generally.

The way SH dealt with the leafet in her programme is typical of their tacticcs.

And persuading other women that women who do abort are misinformed and misguided is part of it.

Bertrand you talk as if Sally Phillips' biases are pre-meditated. That the way she voiced her viewpoint was part of some purposeful tactic towards a particular agenda.

Right at the beginning of the documentary she openly admitted that she has a very personal perspective of this issue, based upon her own experiences. Added to this she openly states she is not a professional documentary maker, neither is she a medical professional.

I think her's and other's experiences, shown on this documentary, are still valid and the issues it raises are pertinent. However, as I said before, for a more balanced perspective to be shown, a whole series of documentaries would have to be made. If anybody is responsible, it is those of the BBC for not commissioning a more balanced series of programmes. I think Sally Phillips should be cut some slack here.

I think there's enough information out there. But not enough support. And the fewer people with Down's syndrome there are, the less support and provision there will be. And so more people will feel they couldn't parent a child with Down's. It's somewhat of a vicious circle.

" I think Sally Phillips should be cut some slack here."

So do I. I get that it was a very personal point of view.

But calling it a documentary, misrepresenting the informstion available and guilt tripping the woman who decided to abort are all a step too far.

Bertrand very few documentaries are actually completely well balanced. The issues that the Sally Phillips documentary raised are complex. To deal with the subject comprehensively a whole series of documentaries would have to be commissioned and then it would probably only touch the surface.

I'm still unclear why we test for ds alongside the other trisonomies as ds is not necessarily incompatible with life, or incompatible with a good life.

Nipt sounds infinitely preferable to the cvs I had and I welcome new, safer testing.

I don't think the documentary was pro life. I felt that it was saying that the way ds is portrayed to people will influence their decisions about their future and the future of their child and this was an attempt to counteract the generic negative and bleak portrayal people are often presented with. I'm sure the woman who was asked if she wanted a termination at every appointment didn't feel that was coming from a pro choice, liberated standpoint.

Of course documentaries are never completely unbiased. That's why I am only calling SP out in blatant lies and outright cruelty.

"an attempt to counteract the generic negative and bleak portrayal people are often presented with."

Like the standard NHS information leaflet I linked to earlier?

However Sally actually said very little to the woman who aborted, due to Down's, although she (Sally) was visibly very upset. I think I would find talking to the woman who aborted, with what she said upsetting, if I were Sally.

Her upset was understandable. The woman who aborted did not really seem to have a strongly convincing argument as to why she aborted, not that she has to, not that she has to justify her decision. However, because most people relate other's experiences to their own I can see why speaking to the woman who aborted due to Down's was upsetting for Sally. Sally may have felt better about it, if the woman's reasoning was extremely convincing but it didn't really offer any easy to understand concrete explanation (I do hope more convincing reasoning was not edited out, though).

The thing is people want to be convinced by other's reasoning, over the decisions they make, to accept their decisions are the right ones. However because we think differently, have different experiences, we weight different reasons differently in terms importance. We have to accept people have a right to make certain decisions we may disagree with or not understand.

The NHS webpage you linked to is not the information I was presented with not so long ago. At that time the ds charities said they wouldn't help discuss choices, they would only support you once you had made the choice to continue the pregnancy. Arc was not mentioned to me by the NHS and I didn't find it during my own research.

This thread and the others like them is full of people insisting ds is terrible. Where have they got that viewpoint from if actually ds is always portrayed in the media as wine and roses? The only positive portrayals of ds I am aware of in recent popular culture are children on Mr Tumble, the guy on Corrie and Sally's doc. And people are taking exception to some of those!

"This thread and the others like them is full of people insisting ds is terrible"

No they aren't.this particular thread is full of people discussing whether or not women should have choice.

Nobody, as far as I know has said that DS is terrible.

Not sure the programme did much good re convincing people, if this and the other thread are anything to go by.
But I suppose people are at least talking about it.
Not that we seem to be getting anywhere? what are we supposed to conclude from all of this?
Tis tricky, that's for sure.

The only conclusion we can draw is that there aren't plenty of people who don't think women can /should be trusted to make decisions about their own bodies and lives.

And we knew that already.

Bertrand another conclusion to make is that women are not universally presented with unbiased information within the NHS. In this way, the choices, which are legally their's to make, are severely compromised.

This, very definitely, needs addressing.

Making women feel they are wrong/naive/cruel/uncaring/ stupid to not abort a foetus with Down's is horrible. It alienates mothers of disabled children aswell as alienating disabled children and adults.

This disablist theme can be seen running throughout MN, on the SN thread where people describe the lack of support they receive, to threads where people voice opinions which show they feel making concessions for any additional needs is just too big an ask.

I didn't like the tone or sentiment of this bias documentary.

Of course Sally Philips doesn't want a world without Downs Syndrome - her own personal experience of it is rewarding and positive.

But I would have hoped that a documentary thus titled would have been more balanced and sympathetic.

I think the 'erosion of rights' cuts both ways. Women feeling pressurised to abort a feotus testing positive for DS is not illustration their legal right to make a choice is being protected. A societal narrative that people who claim disability benefits are often 'scroungers' or 'beyond helping' does not contribute to women or vulnerable sectors of the population's rights being protected either.

You don't need a statistic to prove that being well informed, about DS affects a woman's decision making process, in order to say having access to unbiased information and treatment should be a rightful aim of the NHS.

Sp is an actress who has made a documentary from her point of view about ds. No one is going to be denied a termination for any reason or for ds because an actress made a prime time TV show.

Hopefully all the information currently shared with parents about ds from the NHS is factual, unbiased and supportive of parents' choices. A range of experiences have been shared on the threads about ds recently and in the documentary itself, it's unfair to deny people's lived experience whichever side of the debate those people are on. If people feel they had a great NHS experience with ds I don't disagree with them or tell them they are wrong. I feel sad I didn't have the same but without knowing what other people have experienced it is difficult to know if what you went through is the norm or not.