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Damian Lewis fans line up for Wolf Hall tonight

990 replies

Travelledtheworld · 21/01/2015 11:29

Wednesday 21st January BBC2 Channel 4

lush costumes.

www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/bbc/11358197/Damian-Lewiss-inspiration-for-Wolf-Halls-Henry-VIII-Wills-and-Harry.html

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LatinForTelly · 07/02/2015 09:58

Jeanne, so what is the counter-argument to the one about the elitist Catholic church? I am interested (and not very knowledgeable).

When I learnt about this era at school, the split with Rome was about Henry needing a divorce, but HM's books did illuminate for me the fact that Catholicism had become about power and control.

I appreciate this must be an over-simplification, but what am I missing?

JeanneDeMontbaston · 07/02/2015 10:00
Grin

That does trouble me.

AKnickerfulOfMenace · 07/02/2015 10:04
MamaMary · 07/02/2015 10:09

Yes I think he's very fanciable :)

I do agree with you about Wycliffe though, very odd that he was left out.

Anti-clericalism had a much longer history in England than Melvyn implied, and there is some evidence that Chaucer was sympathetic to it.

The Reformation happened in Europe, Germany with Luther's 95 theses, and Prague with Hus, before spreading to Switzerland and France. It was a continental phenomenon. Eventually its ideas spread to England. So I think it's unhelpful to associate it too much with Henry and the Tudors.

JeanneDeMontbaston · 07/02/2015 10:21

Oh, sorry, cross posted.

Firstly, I object to the ideology behind this binary.

Catholicism and Protestantism are both about power and control.

Elizabeth I killed far more heretics than Mary I, for example. We are given a picture of a nice, fluffy, intellectually free Protestant Church, while the Catholics are painted as foreigners with an inquisition and torture.

It doesn't really stand up, and it sets up all of these xenophobic ideas about religion and oppression, which you can still see feeding into the language - if a politician such as Nick Clegg refers to, say, Iran's 'medieval' practices, you know he means repressive and dictated by a horrible religion.

So that's one issue. Secondly, I think it's bad history - it's made too neat.

There isn't this neat division between Catholicism and Protestantism, with Catholicism aligned with control and feudalism and Protestantism with freedom and emerging capitalism. The chronology doesn't follow.

We used to be taught that Henry brought in the Reformation, in one stroke, breaking with the Catholic Church, closing the monasteries and founding a free religion. But we know actually, he was Catholic all his life.

We also know that, despite what Bragg says about Tyndale, the Catholic Church itself had been having these debates for a very long time. Way back in 1215, the pope insisted that everyone needed to be able to understand religion in the vernacular, and in England, there was a huge move to translate things and improve literacy and so on. It looked for a long time as if that might just run and run, and plenty of countries were ok with vernacular Bible translations. At the same time, the economic structure was shifting, and you do see literacy going further down the social scale, and you also see people starting into urban commerce and what you could call proto-capitalism.

In 1370 or so, again, it all looks pretty exciting, and it looks as if we'll have an English Bible. People debate getting women priests into the church. I dunno how serious that ever was, really, but at this stage (on the economic side again), women are getting into the guilds in France, and getting their business rights upheld quite a bit, and society looks as if everything could change.

In this period (late fourteenth/early fifteenth century) we're also getting an influx of Italian Humanist writings - that's the beginnings of Renaissance thought.

The Church tries to stamp on it hard, because it turns into a political rather than a religious challenge, but it seems to have continued seething away under the surface.

So, you have this very long history of movements back and forwards - some bring a bit more freedom of one kind or another; some restrict it. It's complex. I don't like the idea of picking on Tyndal - who is historically 'at the right time' and claiming it was all his genius, especially when (as with the Bible), it patently wasn't. It's just not true.

Third thing - I'm not sure Protestantism was as good as it's painted.

In the sixteenth century, you have to remember that while Protestantism is hailed as a good thing, it gets rid of nunneries (where women could exercise a fair amount of autonomy, and could get a decent education), and it redefines education, increasingly taking the sort of education ordinary people were most likely to get out of the hands of women, who'd had a big role to play. One of the saddest things, for me, is reading about early modern school 'teachers' who were actually illiterate, and taught children to chant the alphabet even though they themselves never went on to learn to read. Women's roles also became, IMO, a bit more circumscribed - when I read early modern stuff, I'm struck by this emphasis on women's bodies as disgusting. Some women's networks of support also probably disappear.

So, I have problems with the narrative of progress we get given.

I am not saying 'yay, medieval Catholicism!' or trying to claim it was freeing and lovely. But, I think all big social changes happen very, very slowly. They are not usually motivated by altruism. Very few people are genuinely motivated by wanting to end all oppression, but almost every social movement towards change claims that's its motivation.

JeanneDeMontbaston · 07/02/2015 10:25

Sorry, that is not easy to read in the format on MN! Blush

Just to add to mamamary's point, Hus had access to Wycliffite writings, so in that sense, you could trace it back to England again.

People did talk and write a lot more about religious/social change than we tend to be told in school.

When I was in school, I thought only maybe the king and his most important advisors would ever leave England, or talk to someone foreign. I thought all this stuff with Erasmus coming to talk to More, and Tyndal fleeing abroad, must have been shocking and amazing.

But actually, you have perfectly ordinary people who go all over Europe all the time, so ideas do spread quite easily, just as they do today.

We're not taught that so much, because it obscures this propagandist image of England in 'splendid isolation,' sticking up two fingers to Rome and setting off on its own.

MuddhaOfSuburbia · 07/02/2015 10:43
MuddhaOfSuburbia · 07/02/2015 10:45

I know it's stating the bleedin obvious, but any great and liberating new idea (early Protestantism, Methodism-not to mention the early Church) soon gets taken over and used as an instrument of power/control

JeanneDeMontbaston · 07/02/2015 10:53

Thanks. Blush

And yes! I don't think it is stating the obvious in this case. We're not taught it like that. I find it really interesting that - is this just me? - we get taught the Reformation til it's coming out of our ears, but I didn't really do Cromwell at school. That was a pretty repressive regime in a lot of ways.

We also don't really get into the ways in which closing down the monasteries can be linked with enclosures of common land, which I think they can be.

There's a brilliant (fiction) book that imagines what life was like for women right on the edge of all of these changes, and it shows how important all sorts of networks between women must have been - and you can see how those would have been swept away by the religious reformations.

LatinForTelly · 07/02/2015 10:58

That's really interesting, Jeanne, thanks. Blimey I feel like that quote about starting to cut down the forest and realising just how much forest there is - so ignorant!

I didn't know that about Elizabeth I and heretics. My history teacher gave us that lovely quote about channeling the torrents of religious passion through the streams of moderation ... or something, I've probably horribly misquoted. And all the while E I was burning/lopping off heads.

JeanneDeMontbaston · 07/02/2015 11:04

You're not ignorant!

This is my research area. Some of the arguments I'm making are not even things we really teach to undergraduates. And, you know, yell at me if I'm burbling on or coming across as a pretentious twit. Smile

Though, I am dead proud of my lovely A Level history teacher, because she told us that thing about Elizabeth and heretics. She was a real traditionalist in a lot of ways - she would always humanise history by telling us stories and anecdotes - but she was great at making us second-guess things.

Of course, Elizabeth reigned for waaaay longer - but still!

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 07/02/2015 11:04

This is fantastic Jeanne, it's so interesting - thank you.

To be fair to Elizabeth, she was on the throne for an awful lot longer than Mary - I'm not sure how their heretic-burning rate would compare when you work it out annually.

JeanneDeMontbaston · 07/02/2015 11:06
Grin

See, now, I just want to write a Horrible Histories maths textbook with questions like that.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 07/02/2015 11:13

OK a cursory inspection of the internet reveals wildly different sets of figures for both, depending on who you count, so I have no clue.

The bigger figures for Elizabeth seem to have been arrived at by including Ireland, the bigger ones for Henry by believing the figure of 70000 killed in the aftermath of the Pilgrimage of Grace which AFAIK is based on a contemporary chronicler and not taken seriously.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 07/02/2015 11:14

Horrible Histories maths textbook would be genius Grin

JeanneDeMontbaston · 07/02/2015 11:14

Well, you'd know about the Pilgrimage of Grace.

But I was comparing to Mary, since (being female) she is the one with the Evil Catholic reputation.

JeanneDeMontbaston · 07/02/2015 11:15

Let's get Greg Jenner onto it. Grin

MuddhaOfSuburbia · 07/02/2015 11:17

re Elizabeth I and heretics

I was only aware of the scale of this because I came across Antony Burgess' Dead Man In Deptford novel on Christopher Marlowe which prompted a rummage about on tinternet

it's definitely glossed over in school. As is Cromwell. I think in the case of OC is that it's such a problematic subject- especially for kids- to understand. There's no clear Goodies/Baddies narrative for one. On one hand with Cromwell you have a real progressive way of thinking, the start of democracy, the end of the King's absolute power- otoh you have repression and dictatorship of a different kind

I've said it before and I'll say it again- if Hilary Mantel could turn her hand to knocking out an Oliver Cromwell trilogy next, I'd be delighted

Grin
TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 07/02/2015 11:19

I know, sorry, I got sidetracked because lots of the hits were comparing Mary and Elizabeth with their dad.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 07/02/2015 11:21

What other histfic has Mantel done, apart from the French Revolution?

MuddhaOfSuburbia · 07/02/2015 11:21

and YES YES YES to Horrible Histories maths textbook

go on Greg

I can leave it in the toilet for the dcs

MuddhaOfSuburbia · 07/02/2015 11:23

I don't think she's done any, has she Countess?

to be fair, when she does it, she goes large

KatieScarlettreregged · 07/02/2015 11:25

A place of Greater Safety?
French Revolution.
Just about to start it.

JeanneDeMontbaston · 07/02/2015 11:26

I can't get on with her French Revolution one. Too blokey.

KatieScarlettreregged · 07/02/2015 11:30

Oh no, that's Sat night with Audible gone if it is no good.
Any tips on a replacement?