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Damian Lewis fans line up for Wolf Hall tonight

990 replies

Travelledtheworld · 21/01/2015 11:29

Wednesday 21st January BBC2 Channel 4

lush costumes.

www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/bbc/11358197/Damian-Lewiss-inspiration-for-Wolf-Halls-Henry-VIII-Wills-and-Harry.html

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TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 27/01/2015 13:30

My brain can just about cope with the idea of Mark Rylance porn but now I've started to imagine Actual Thomas Cromwell porn and that's not good.

squoosh · 27/01/2015 13:39
Grin

You could be a fallen nun who now runs a bawdy house?

MamaMary · 27/01/2015 15:25

Flippinada, I managed to find that review. It was on Amazon.com.

It's by someone called Judith Loriente - second review down.

Second review down

Idontseeanysontarans · 27/01/2015 15:29

The Tudors section of Fanfictionnet has Cromwell porn.
Blush

flippinada · 27/01/2015 16:14

Thanks MamaMary Smile.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 27/01/2015 16:32

I once read some Tudors fanfic, which was all about Thomas More being executed with a red hot poker, Edward II-style, only due to some clever sorcery, his consciousness was actually switched with the king's at the last minute so it was Henry VIII being tortured.
Never dared read any more since!

flippinada · 27/01/2015 16:32

Not read the review in any detail, and frustratingly, I can't read the comments on my phone.

I did pick up that the writer is very exercised about the (she says) misogynistic portrayal of Anne Boleyn in the book.

I didn't get that at all - also bear in mind that it's not meant to be an objective historical portrayal (doesn't pretend to be) and it's from the perspective of TC who is not going to have a 21st C perspective.

Besides, whatever an individuals view of Anne Boleyn (anyone who has an interest in that period of history will have one, I certainly do ), you can't help but feel desperately sorry for her and that comes across in the novel too.

flippinada · 27/01/2015 16:35

Think I'll give the Tudors fanfic a miss, it sounds quite disturbing...

MamaMary · 27/01/2015 16:46

Yes, there is a commenter that agrees with your perspective, Flip and argues that it's fiction, and we're seeing it all from TC's point of view, and that TC HAD to find Anne Bolyen guilty (to keep his own life intact).

However I'm inclined to think that Mantels fails to successfully portray the pathos and desperation of AB's plight, and she basically does give much credence to the theory that she committed adultery, despite that being unlikely historically.

Another thought I kept having when I was reading both WH and BUTB, but particularly BUTB, is how obsessed with sex it is. And that that part of it is written in quite a misogynistic way. Yes, true to the time, I know, but it really was quite relentless at times.

marshmallowpies · 27/01/2015 16:53

The Antonia Fraser biography definitely has the most sympathy for Catherine of Aragon (Fraser is a Catholic) but she is also very kind to poor Catherine Howard who she clearly thinks was a very naive young girl in over her head, a pawn for the Howard family's games.
Obviously Mantel is going to be done with Cromwell by the time the last two Catherines appear - when we finally get that third book, that is!

MamaMary · 27/01/2015 17:12

Those sketches of Cromwell posted on this thread have helped convince me that he was a nasty piece of work, and that Mantel's depiction of him really IS fiction...

flippinada · 27/01/2015 18:00

That's interesting MamaMary - my reading of the books was different in terms of how Anne Boleyn was treated. My interpretation is that TC knows this is probably nonsense (which IMO it was - I mean the allegations against her); but does it anyway because it's what Henry VIII wants and he sees an opportunity for himself. The reader is left to make a judgement on that for themselves.

TC himself - I can't say I like him and I'm not sure we are meant to think of him in that way?

My personal thoughts on AB (not that I know her at all, apart from what I've read) - am inclined to suspect that she was extremely intelligent and shrewd, if not particularly likeable. The way she treated Mary (as in Mary Tudor) was particularly cruel.

I do think sex and the way women were treated/perceived was certainly central to BUTB - how could it not be.

Another thing I like about WH and BUTB is that the focus is away where it usually is - the royals and nobles. TC came from nowhere and got where he did on his own skills and intelligence.

Henry VIII is the real villain of the piece though, isn't he? Getting others to do his dirty work. It was ever thus...

MamaMary · 27/01/2015 18:56

I agree about Henry VIII as the ultimate villain.

However I think Mantel missed a trick with Anne Boleyn - she painted her as a one-dimensional character. It was entirely unsympathetic. Boleyn's opposition to Cromwell's use of monastery money to stock the king's coffers, for instance, was not even mentioned.

I also think mantel had to work a lot harder to convince me that TC thought the allegations were utterly nonsense. Instead, the reader was left with the strong impression that he believed them.

flippinada · 27/01/2015 19:09

Or, he chose to believe them because it was expedient fot him to do so? He's a very shrewd and calculating with an eye to the main chance, so I think this interpretation is in character.

An alternative interpretation could be that he genuinely did believe the allegations (I'm not sure on this) thereby 'allowing' himself to orchestrate ABs downfall without troubling his conscience?

I've been reading that 'conversation' on Amazon.com - absolutely fascinating - thank you for the link.

flippinada · 27/01/2015 19:47

marshmallow - I know she's been dead for nearly 500 years but my heart goes out to Catherine Howard (as it does to Anne Boleyn), what happened to her was horrific.

I think there's a theory out there that she was possibly a victim of sexual abuse (as we understand it now) and neglect.

JustCallMeDory · 28/01/2015 18:56

Two hours to go to tonight's ep. Excited already.

Anyone else?

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 28/01/2015 19:05

Oh yes.
Or yea verily, as Hilary Mantel wouldn't say.

JustCallMeDory · 28/01/2015 19:09
Smile

It's becoming event tv in our house. Want to open a bottle of something lovely - but it's Wednesday why, BBC, why?

ohmymimi · 28/01/2015 19:13

Yes, I'm really looking forward to it. I've now watched 1st episode three times! I struggled with the Holbein doc. as I found WJ's presentational style very irritating, but the content was interesting. The Frick is now on my 'must do' list.

ohmymimi · 28/01/2015 19:15

Just - I agree, why Wed.? It's Sunday evening fare, surely?

JustCallMeDory · 28/01/2015 19:36

ohmy I'm so glad you came out of the closet and admitted that you've been rewatching ep1. I have too Blush

CeartGoLeor · 28/01/2015 19:51

I don't see Mantel's AB as one-dimensional. She's a shrewd operator, a courtier who arrives at the court from France, clocks how her pretty, compliant sister has been had by everyone, including the king, with nothing at all to show for it, and decides to play it differently, using the only tools at her disposal - and with an apparently genuine interest in religious reform.

I think TC, who is interested in the female perspective - there's that bit near the start of a Wolf Hall where he is listening to Liz saying that AB has made enemies of all women without sons, all ageing women etc, and TC wonders why Liz is thinking of the feelings of women without sons, and concludes that women spend time imagining what it us like to be other people, and that there's something to be learned there - appreciates AB as a fellow climber and game player, and doesn't underestimate her while she's of importance to the king. After that ends, she stops being a force to be reckoned with, and he allows herself to remember her enmity for Wolsey as he's ruining her (along with the courtiers who played the cruel play about his downfall).

Sunnymeg · 28/01/2015 21:27

DS has just said that Thomas More looked like Blofeld (from James Bond) the way he was stroking that rabbit. Probably not the reaction the producers were after.

herecomesthsun · 28/01/2015 21:47

We think there are real parallels between the Henry-Cromwell relationship and the Flop-Bing relationship (lowers tone..)

herecomesthsun · 28/01/2015 21:48

Also prob not the reaction the producers are after.