finding mum and dad.....

[crikeybill]

On channel 4. Holy Christ I'm sobbing. I've tried turning it over but I have to know if someone adopts them....

Bookroom Yes short term and long term foster carers are different.

Generally speaking short term carers will look after children who as you say will eventually move on, either to be adopted, move into long term care or possibly back to their birth parents. The words "short term" however are a little misleading as the children may still end up being with short term carers for years as this programme showed.

Long term carers need to be more able to commit themselves to a long term future with the children in their care. They need extra training , discussion and support to ensure that whatever issues the children may present with in the future then these can be worked on within the family to ensure the placement does not break down.

Thanks for that post desperately. Having watched the programme as a layperson, the elephant in the room seems to be 'why can't they stay with the foster carers?', especially given the fact they have been there so long already. So you've made some points i didn't know about, thanks.

what made me sad was really the reality of the numbers - ie. there are more kids than prospective adoptive parents. I sort of knew that, but the programme really brought home what it actually means to real kids. So if Connor and Daniel are 'unadoptable', and they were hugely charming, bright, affectionate etc., bloody hell, what happens to the really hard to place ones?

So i think some of the posters on this thread have been a bit quick to be offended. I think "why doesn't anyone want to adopt these adorable kids" is a perfectly normal, emotional response to the programme. But the blame for the lack of placement, if anywhere, is with the overall numbers and not with individual adopter choices.

it broke my heart those two little boys deserve a loving family - they all do. I would love to adopt them !

Hopefully there will be an increase in the numbers of registered adopters so that the "backlog" can be cleared and new children can be adopted more quickly when they are still tiny
Maybe if people with fertility issues were given a leaflet on adoption and maybe a chat more people would choose that option

yes I think if the parties and the programme raise the profile of adoption generally that is a good thing.

I did wonder about the ethics of the programme though. Imagine if Scott saw the programme in 10 years time and saw there had been 'no interest' in him. Even an adult would have to have a very robust ego indeed to not mind about that.

And I also wondered why on earth they set up children's expectations when the likelihood of them being adopted just isn't that high. I'm sure one of the social workers gave some stats and it was well below 50%. So why was Connor talking about 'forever families' and his 'future' when it might have been easier to just say, you're in a foster familiy for now and then just leave it at that. I suppose it is about being honest, but when adoption rates aren't that high, why raise expectations?

I haven't read the thread yet but just watched the programme and it was so upsetting.

I was in care. I was up for adoption but the day before I was due to move to my new mum and dad's the woman who gave birth to me changed her mind and I was in and out of foster care and children's homes for the rest of my childhood.

DH and I would love to adopt but I doubt I would have any chance of being approved having been in care myself and had PND after having my children.

Those boys were adorable. I really hope this year they get their own Mummy and Daddy.

I haven't watched the programme yet, but will watch it on catch up later.

However, I was talking to the Adoptions Manager at work about it yesterday and she was of the belief that following that programme, those boys will have no problem in finding a match - she thinks that an approved adopter out there somewhere will want them.

She said that our Local Authority has held one of these 'parties' previously (although we called it an activity day). She said that the expectations of the children were very carefully managed - they were told that they were going to a fun day with other children and families. 4 matches were achieved that day.

I also know that quite a high proportion of our 'hard to place' children end up getting adopted by their foster carers.

I love the idea of fostering, but know that I would get very emotionally attached - the thought of sending a vulnerable child back to a less than perfect home would break my heart. We have young children of our own at the moment, but it is certainly something we will consider when they are older / have left home.

I really admire people who foster and adopt - you are all wonderful, wonderful people

On a more factual basis the following may interest people:

As at 31st March 2013 there were 6890 children awaiting adoption.

Yet there were only 4195 approved adopters.

58% of adoptive families that were matched to a child in 2012/13 waited more than 3 months for a suitable match.

In the three years between 2010 and 2013 just 7% of children from ethnic minorities (often classed as hard to place) who left care were adopted.

In the same period just 4% of children over the age of 5 who left care were adopted.

The average time between a child coming into care and being adopted is 647 days (over a three year period). Where a child has been adopted by their foster family and the date that the child moved in with the foster family is used instead of the final adoption date this reduces to 545 days.

The average time between a child being released for adoption and a match being found is 210 days.

Food for thought!

In regards to "why can't they stay with their foster family" - surely the answer might just be that the foster family don't want to adopt them or foster long term? Which is perfectly reasonable. It might be financial reasons, or that the boys display some quite difficult or challenging behaviour that they know will get harder to handle as they get older, or that when they say they themselves are "too old" - they have older teenage children who will probably be leaving home in the next few years and maybe they don't want to commit another 15+ years to parenthood. Or they might just really like fostering and want to keep doing that.

I don't think being in care or having PND would stop you adopting Toffee.

SpareName - DH has said the same. He would get too attached to foster which is why we have said we would like to adopt. Unfortunately his mother had a cats bum face when I told her and I have that in the back of my mind all the time . DH said it made him more determined to do it and was about his mother who is meant to be a Christian.

I have been too scared to ask lilyaldrin though tbh my youngest is too little for us to do it yet.

i totaly understand that the foster carers might not want to adopt as you don't get paid for adoption do you? So it would basically be like giving up your job, which most people are not in a position to do. I didn't really buy his 'we're too old' comment. They looked about 35! but I did wonder why they wouldn't do long term foster care as presumably it would still be paid and surely the fewer placements the boys undergo the better?

They presumably chose to be short term foster carers because it suited their family better. Maybe they don't want to make a 10 or 15 year commitment? Maybe they don't feel capable of fostering challenging teenagers? Maybe they are looking forward to having some child free time in a few years once their own kids have left home?

Toffee, there was a woman on my adoption prep course who had been raised in care and was applying to be a single adopter. The agency welcomed the empathy and insight this gave her though it's fair to say she found aspects of the course very harrowing and maybe still had to do some more healing herself.

Lots of us on the adoption board have had depression.

Long term foster care comes with its own issues though - not least of which is the fact that birth parents can then request contact to begin again, which will often have stopped once a placement order is made.

Thanks so much to Desperately and the others who responded to my fostering questions.

I thought it was pretty clear from the documentary that Katy and her partner didn't want to adopt Daniel and Connor, however attached to them they were. Their birth children looked late teens/early twenties, and of them made a reference to being 'too old', though her partner seemed more opposed to the idea than Katy. I think he also said, after she talked about how upsetting she found the first 'party' and how she wanted to take them home and not put them through it again, that they wouldn't 'be doing it for the right reasons'. Katy in particular struck me as almost desperate in her desire to find the boys parents - as if she could cope with losing them as long as they went to a loving permanent home, but not as easily if they were going to another fostered...?

One other question that occurred to me - all the children at the adoption activity days we saw seemed to be white, and I don't think I noticed any non-white potential adopters either...? This might I suppose be down to the places where they took place having very little ethnic diversity. Only I thought I had gathered from media stuff in the past that ethnic minority adopters were often being sought for children with ethnic minority backgrounds. I suppose I thought that might mean that more non-white children might be at 'adoption parties' as 'harder to place' if there were fewer non-white potential adopters for them ...? Or is there no longer a policy of 'matching' children to adoptive parents on ethnic grounds?

Unfortunately his mother had a cats bum face when I told her and I have that in the back of my mind all the time. DH said it made him more determined to do it

A couple I know were turned down by adoption panel ostensibly because the woman's mother said that she would be unable to view the child in the same way as her other 'real' grandchildren, and she didn't want them to do it. The couple are devestated, but I guess she had to be honest when questioned. She had previously offered to pay for ivf for the couple, but they preferred to pursue adoption. I don't know if that's the whole story on why they were unsuccessful, but it's so sad for them.

neepsandtatties - that is so sad. I understand she had to be honest but being like that has hurt her child .

I would never forgive my MIL If we did try and support with fostering or adopting and she wasn't welcoming. She knows my childhood was shit. Hers was amazing. She says she is a Christian, why wouldn't she want to do the Christian thing? .

If I was honest I would say DH would choose adoption and I would choose fostering. ATM it doesn't matter that we aren't both the same as the time isn't right for us at the moment and I think it will more likely be when ours have left home, or are young adults before we look into it.

At the moment there is a fostering table at the shopping centre and I would love to ask for info but scared of being turned down and as I have said, it is too soon for us.

Bookroom It may just be that the local authorities involved in the adoption party don't have many non-white children available for adoption. Overall, 82% of waiting children are white (although I assume this covers all white backgrounds eg. eastern european etc), and 90% of approved adoptive parents are white as well. But this depends on area, in some areas there will be a much higher percentage of black/mixed race waiting children, whereas in some LA's non-white children make up less than 5% of the waiting children.

I think I did see a little boy who wasn't white at one party, but i might be remembering wrong. But I just assumed that the LA's in question had few non white children and few non-white parents

Those stats alone tell you there arent nearly enough adoptive parents for the waiting children who aren't white - and of course, it's a lot about nationality and religous background as opposed to just colour, and there's a difference between the backgrounds of many ethnic minority waiting children and the ethnic minority parents approved to adopt them. There IS a preference to place children with parents of the same ethnicity and religious background, and I think everyone would agree it's a good thing, if all other factors are equal, to pick a family of the same background for a child over a family with a different background. The issue is what do you do if a child is waiting and a match can't be found with a family of the same background. When do you consider a different family etc. Many LA's will do transracial adoption and I know and know of a few transracial adoptive families, but the agency will not do it without looking first for a family for the child that do have the same background/heritage

Maybe if people with fertility issues were given a leaflet on adoption and maybe a chat more people would choose that option

Oh jeez, naty1 I realize that was said in all kindness and clearly being totally naive of infertility. But I can assure you that everyone knows adoption is an option but nobody knows more than the infertile because they are constantly told "why don't you just adopt". When in fact some can't for various reasons or want to have their own biological child or just think after years of infertility let downs that adoption would be one more thing to suffer through. A leaflet is not going to change that. Please do not ever mention it to someone going through infertility.

whydontyouadopt.wordpress.com/

www.salon.com/2013/08/15/dont_tell_infertile_people_to_just_adopt/

www.fertilityauthority.com/articles/excerpt-why-dont-you-just-adopt

lifewithoutbaby.com/2013/03/04/why-dont-you-just-adopt/

wholeheartedspirit.net/2013/08/17/why-dont-you-just-adopt/

gateway-women.com/2012/09/17/why-dont-you-just-adopt/

I would be amazed if someone was turned down at panel because a grandparent didn't approve. Really amazed. Its really not uncommon to have disapproving members of the family - just read some of the adoption threads you'll see it all the time.

Provided you, the parent, commit to putting your childs needs first there isn't generally a problem.

And provided you have worked through your issues (if there are any!) I don;t see being in care yourself or having a history of depression as a barrier. Though you would be questioned quite carefully on how you would handle difficult aspects of adopting.

If depression were a barrier there would be very few adoptions! Not only is failed fertility treatment rather depressing but so can the adoption process be! AS long as you can handle the tough times you'll be considered - they need teabags not shrinking violets.

Yes, a strong theme throughout my home study was the social worker saying, "We're not interested in feeling who've had perfect, uneventful lives. We want people who have had problems and faced them, people who have insight into themselves and can own their mistakes, pick themselves up and carry on. We want people who are resourceful and resilient."

Having gone through ivf and years of infertility I do understand. However I would have liked to be given the leaflet on adoption. Even if it was to consider later. I still don't actually know about the reality of adoption.
The couple on the program decided not to persue fertility treatment in favour of adoption. Information is always useful you can always choose to ignore it.
Although a strange thing virtually anyone can do ivf no checks etc but so many checks it seems before adoption

This sounds awful but I know they aren't looking for perfect parents as a neighbour has been able to adopt twice and foster twice even though no one would give a reference for them and the father is an alcoholic with violent tendencies and another neighbour openly admits she fosters for the money.* She never seems to have her children with her. They are either at the nursery or with her mother 8am-7pm.

• I think most foster as they have love and support to give and don't see it as a money making scheme where they farm the kids out.

I'm so upset watching this. I am amazed about the lesser interest in boys. OK, I'm biased as I have 2 lovely boys (now grown up), but I find it so sad people want one of each if they are going to take on more than one child. Utterly filled with admiration for the incredible foster carers

Having gone through ivf and years of infertility I do understand. However I would have liked to be given the leaflet on adoption.

so, you had no idea that should you choose to have a child you could adopt one? How much information do you think you would get from a leaflet? If you wanted to adopt and seriously considered it, there are literally thousands of books available and you can go direct to the source for information or the internet. Like everyone else does.