finding mum and dad.....

[crikeybill]

On channel 4. Holy Christ I'm sobbing. I've tried turning it over but I have to know if someone adopts them....

Apologies to everyone on the thread. I was posting in the early hours of this morning and quoted a totally inaccurate figure for the possibility of inherited risk of psychotic illness. However I don't think you had to be quite so rude bideyin - as soon as I re-read my post I realised the error I had made was fairly monumental.

The illness in the general population and occurring randomly is around 1% and that risk increases to 10% if one parent has the illness - the risk is significantly increased if both parents and grandparents are affected.

Of course it is more complex than just thinking in terms of percentages. If you google "Inherited Risk of Schizophrenia" there is information including the issue of pre-disposition to the illness etc.

Sorry again.

Even the 10% figure is disputed. I don't think I was rude. The number you quoted was scary and without any basis in fact. When you post stuff like that it unnecessarily frightens people.

Percentage risk varies enormously dependant on a number of factors.

My risk is 10%.

It's impossible/unwise to generalise on this issue I think.

Look bideyinn I made a mistake - of course I knew it wasn't 50% and I shouldn't have been posting in the early hours when I was tired and not thinking straight, but have you never made a mistake. I am grateful that you were able to dispute what I had posted, and of course I wouldn't deliberately unnecessarily frighten people.

I have apologised and we'll have to agree to disagree about whether your comment about my post being "absolute nonsense" was somewhat rude.

I hope the thread can now continue because it has been very useful to people and dare I say I know that I have been able to help clarify and explain some of the issues that poster were raising and I have been interested in posts from foster carers and adopters.

Sorry nananina I still don't think it Was rude. My child's father has a very severe form of schizophrenia. If he/she was reading this thread they would be very upset and frightened. If I were considering adopting a child and I thought they had a 50% chance of inheriting such an illness it would make me think twice. Of course I accept it was a mistake but it needed to be corrected,and forcibly too. It also detracted from any useful contributions you may have made to this thread.

Oh FGS can you not accept that I made an error - quite a big one and apologised......what more do you want. It's only your opinion that it detracted from any other contributions I had made on the thread.

I hope that this doesn't de-rail the thread. I will not post anything else in relation to my error.

In answer to your question IGH, I do feel Adopters are often judged very harshly, both in the media and even by the professionals who are meant to support them. Its almost a case that they can't do right for doing wrong! Think carefully about a match and you are being picky, jump in and you are being naive. Regardless of which, it is still a huge leap of faith, no matter what you do and any way of giving adopters more control and knowledge within this process is welcome. I adopted at the time we weren't even allowed to see a photo. How ridiculous!

If foster carers are struggling, its acceptable to move a child to another 'placement'. Nobody judges or villifies. This is not the case in Adoption. Adopters and children's lives are devastated if a breakdown occurs, the more we can do to empower and equip parents to prevent this happening, the better, in my opinion.

I can't believe what this thread has turned into! Nananina, please be clear that there are a large number of foster carers on here (I only really visit that page so can't comment on other posters too) who truly value the support you give - for free and in your own time. There are times I personally have got more useful information from you than from my own support worker.

Beryl, I'd have to disagree with your comment that "If foster carers are struggling, it's acceptable to move a child to another 'placement'. Nobody judges or vilifies." Any decent foster carer would not disrupt a placement without a huge amount of heartache, they would be devastated at the breakdown and I know carers who have been unable to foster again after feeling they've 'failed' a foster child. I'm not for a minute suggesting that adoptive parents don't deserve support too, in fact I really don't understand why you're trying to create a line between FC and adopters. I get on well with the adopters I work with and they'd be horrified by any suggestion that we weren't BOTH on the side of their child.

i didn't read Beryl's post that way scarlet - I read it more as that other people (ie the general public) don;t judge foster carers for having to move a child on, I'm sure good foster carers judge themselves very harshly. However I have never heard anything from those outside the fostering and adoption community except very very harsh judgement on adoptive parents if the placments break down.

They accept that children may have to move foster placements but if an adoption breaks down I have heard (personally) incredibly judgemental comments with really very little knowledge of the situation or understanding that the damage was caused long before the adoptive parents (or foster carers often) got involved.

Thanks Kewcucumber. That is exactly what I meant. It is the public and professional perception. I didn't suggest for one moment that foster carers themselves wouldn't feel that way. I am not trying to create any line but would like the different roles to be acknowledged and highlight the unfair assumptions often made, and implicit in this programme, about adopters.
In fact, years on, I have worked hard to maintain links with carers as I felt it was in my child's best interest and I value the care they gave my child at a difficult time in their life.

Use of the term 'rejected' is incredibly offensive, both to adopters and children. It contributes to the misconception that prospective adopters are offered loads of children and choose the one they prefer! Completely untrue. On separate occasions, adopters may consider several children presented to them as potential matches and then choose not to proceed, often after a great deal of agonising soul searching. I've never heard of anyone making this decision on 'looks'!

poster BerylThePeril44 *the reason why it's accepted that a child will move on from a foster placement is baca use basically they are NOT your children however if adopting it is accepted they are and disrupting should not be done as easily as a foster carer would I really do think it should be just as difficult to disrupt as it would be to place your bio child into care.

Every avenue has to bee exhausted were I have know children to move foster placements for various reasons including vary frivolous ones

Thank you Scarlet for your positive comment. It was very welcome. For me assisting on these threads is a way of using the skills and expertise in fostering and adoption built up over many years, and now that I am retired it is something I really enjoy doing. Quite a few foster carers and adopters PM me and I am always happy for anyone to do this. I don't mean that I "know it all" or any such thing, but I hope you get the drift of what I am saying.

I'm not sure that there is a "dividing line" about the opinions of others (including social workers) between foster carers and adopters. In my experience the problems that arise in the views of those who have (or don't have) knowledge of fostering and adoption are very similar.

I managed a Fostering & Adoption Team for 15 years and had a team of very experienced and committed workers. However we often found ourselves having to take issue with the social workers for the children who had what we perceived to be unrealistic expectations of foster carers and adopters, both pre and post approval.

Very often we had young social workers who had no children of their own, with a view that foster carers should be "Mr and Mrs Perfect" or "Ms Perfect" and would come to us with trivial matters. Quite often these matters would be things that the birthparents complained about and instead of the social worker explaining that the issue was not one of concern, they would come and complain to us e.g. X was given microwave meals a couple of times a week or Y wasn't allowed to watch certain TV programmes or they were out to bed too early, or too late etc etc. I think you can get the picture. Obviously if there were concerns (and sometimes there were) we ensured that we took up the matter with the relevant foster carer and the child's social worker in order to find a resolution.

IF a foster carer felt they had to give notice on a child for whatever reason (maybe they couldn't cope with the child's disruptive behaviour any more/their own children were being adversely affected/they were having to care for an ageing parent/were experiencing health problems of their own etc etc.) very often the social worker would be annoyed, sometimes indignant with comments like "Well I thought foster carers were meant to be able to deal with these things."

Clearly there is a huge difference between the carer working 24/7 with whatever difficulties arose, and the social worker who was popping in every couple of weeks (or less) and maybe taking the child to McDonalds and coming back saying "Oh she's a lovely girl, that foster carer needs to be more understanding......." In response my team attempted to set up a series of meetings so that we could discuss these issues but we found the children's social workers rarely came to the meetings and my attempts to get the CP Team Managers to encourage social workers to work together with us, fell on stoney ground.

We had less difficulty with adoption. My adoption workers were hugely experienced and committed and would sometimes have to "counsel out" adopters at some stage, although in these cases, the adoption sw would present a preliminary report to the Adoption Panel. The legal advice at the time was that the applicants had the right for their application to be pursued though this was very rare. Obviously it would be the task of the child's social worker to read the Form Fs on the adopters and visit them (assuming there were any likely matches of course) and we encouraged them to go along with the adoption social worker. I honestly can't remember a great deal of difficulty in these cases. However when adoptions did disrupt (euphemism for breakdown!) then the social worker for the child would almost always be critical of the adopters and again it would be the task of the adoption sw to attempt to explain that there were no guarantees in adoption and that although it was sad for the child, there was no option but to remove the child.

I'm sure I've said before I have seen foster carers and adopters suffer colossal amounts of stress and even mental health issues, and feelings of guilt and failure, and marital disharmony, sometimes resulting in divorce, when the problems with the child/ren became insurmountable.

As usual I've said too much..................but I will just end with the old saying that you "need to walk a mile in someone's shoes before you can understand" and if people really took this on board, maybe, just maybe there would be fewer people making judgements on others, based on ignorance.

Could I ask another question, about adoption 'disruption'?

Is it much talked about during preparation courses? It sounds like such a horrifying situation.

I was just wondering what the legal situation was via a vis the child and the adopting parents, as I gather that, in adoption, the child's original birth cert is marked as void, and an adoption certificate is issued that makes it as though the child was born to the adopting parent/s. Should that adoption disrupt, and the child go into residential or long term foster care, what becomes of their relationship legally?

BookroomRed, yes, disruption was certainly discussed during my prep course, and also during home study.

Once adoption is finalised, adoptive parents are in the same legal position as birth parents. If the adoption disrupts, the child may live elsewhere but they are still the legal parents and will continue to be so unless and until the child is re-adopted. I am pretty certain that's the case, anyway. I think it would be very undesirable if adoptive parenthood was treated within law as less permanent and binding than biological parenthood.

NanaNina thanks for your wise words and your concern. Be reassured our county council have done a very good job of preparing us about what to expect, the preparation course we attended left us with few illusions. Listening to adopters on the adoption thread her on mumsnet has done a good job too, any time I have asked questions (a lot) experienced adopters have come along and given good advice and I have been privileged to meet some of them in real life too.

You said "... there have been adopters on the thread explaining that for them one child or another did not seem the right fit for them for whatever reason and this is absolutely the right track to be on."

I agree.

I think you misunderstood my use of the word 'rejection' I did not mean that I find it hard to understand why a potential adopter would not choose to adopt a certain child. I meant I do not like the use of the word 'rejection'.

If you look at some of the dictionary definitions of the word you will see what I mean! (No offense meant at all.)

www.thefreedictionary.com/rejection

I prefer to think that there were children I heard about at a matching event or from my county council and did not pursue or chose not to request details for.

I can’t remember who used the word rejection but it was used and I agree with Beryl that I find it offensive in relation to adoption. But I am not criticising anyone, simply explaining what I mean when I said “I find it quite hard all this talk of rejecting children.” That was why I made the word rejecting in bold. I am sorry if that was not clear.

Maybe I was a bit rosy spectacled in relation to the boys in the documentary. I was not so smitten though that I considered adopting them myself, because our family make up is such that I would not be able to take children that age (due to my daughter’s age).

I am encouraged to hear that there have been enquires about the boys.

scarlet5tyger you said....’I'd like to reassure you that long AND short term foster carers make lifelong commitments to their foster children - if parents (adoptive or birth or otherwise) allow it. I don't know any foster carer who simply boots the child out once they reach 18 (but then I'm only friends with the good ones!) and I'm still a second mummy to some of the children who "only" lived with me for 18 months.’ I am very pleased to hear it. I did not mean to cause any offence. I only know one real life foster carer and she is really lovely but she only fosters short term and I do not know her very well. So it is no criticism at all of foster carers, I was talking specifically of adopters. It is great you feel so protective of your foster children; it was clear from the documentary that Katy felt that way too. It is a real encouragement that foster cares care so much (as I say I only know one).

Thank you Beryl for your thoughts and Kew as ever so clear, my dear.

I'm not sure but there seems to be 'rivalry' when talking about foster carers and adopters. We are all just trying to learn and share. (Or at least I hope that is what we are doing.)

I, as a potential adopter, want to learn more about adoption from people who know about it from the inside (adopters and people who have been adopted) and am very happy to hear from foster carers and social workers too, it is all building up a picture of the whole 'looked after' system.

I feel the very nature of adoption is that it is a legal and emotional commitment for life, and if it breaks down it is devastating (so I have been told) for all. I am really encouraged that foster carers may also feel a life long commitment. I have not ruled out exploring foster care one day. I can see they do an amazing job. However, the documentary was about adoption and I watched it as a potential adopter and 'adopters' in general came in for some flack on social media in relation to this, so that may be why there is some sensitivity here.

Thanks, Devora. That is what I thought. Yes, the idea of adoptive parenting as in any way less legally absolute than the biological variety is awful.

Yes adoption is for life in much the same way as giving birth is... you can have your parental rights terminated by court order or your child can be placed in care whilst still being your child.

There is a bit of a twilight zone between placement and adoption order which last about 6-12 months, where it was legally unclear (in my case) whether I had parental responsibility or whether the local authority did... as it happens I just assumed parental responsibility and no-one challenged me!

Yes Devora you are absolutely right about an adopted child's legal status if the adoption breaks down.

I think in my recent long post I was trying to say in an over-detailed way that the people who make negative comments about foster carers or adopters who are unable to continue to care for a child/ren are people who just don't have any understanding whatsoever of the difficulty some carers/adopters are faced with day in and day out and the effect on their mental health, marriage etc etc. and that of course included the social workers I mentioned in my post.

Just looked back at the OP who started this thread and she says "holy Christ I'm sobbing - I've tried turning it over but I have to know if someone adopts them..........." think that says it all really. The OP must have thought it was going to be known by the end of the programme whether the boys would be adopted!!

Some years ago Central TV featured some children who were awaiting adoption and they were mostly children with disabilities. Some of us went along to answer the phones that people made whilst watching the programme, and it was unbelievable, at the first break the phones were going mad (there were about 12 of us answering) and all we could do really was take their details so that they could be contacted later. However I still remember some of the odd things that people said - we did ask if they had a gender preference and I heard one man shout " Billy do you want a brother or a sister....." I kid you not. One woman said "I want the girl on the roundabout in the red coat....." unbelievable. At the end of the programme we had all taken dozens of calls and so there was a significant number of forms and the TV presenter said with a big smile "How wonderful that all these children have now found loving parents..........." In actual fact not a single match was made following that programme but it was repeated and we found over time that some prospective adopters were coming forward, as they had been thinking about adoption after seeing the TV programmes. Can't remember how long ago this was but sometime in the 1990s I think.

I was always worried about prospective foster carers or adopters who said things like "Oh if I had a big enough house and plenty of money I'd adopt a dozen children" because it demonstrated that they didn't have any idea of what it would be like caring for a child who had suffered trauma in his/her early life and the potential difficulties that this could cause.

IGH it's ok I didn't take your use of the word "rejection" the wrong way. I knew what you meant. To be honest I haven't heard anything negative (someone mentioned in the social media) about foster carers or adopters who are unable to continue to care for children they are permanently fostering or have adopted. I can imagine people being judgemental though but I still feel this is through a total lack of understanding of the difficulties many families encounter and the soul searching and heartache that happen when the difficulties become insurmountable.

I wonder if I Can change tack and ask foster carers (pre and post approval) and adopters (pre and post approval) about their views of the birth parents because in adoption there is often mention of the adoption triangle - the adoptee* the adopters and the birthparents

Have any of you completed lifestory books for your adopted children - I know social workers are meant to start these books but I think it's often something that "falls off the end" and it is left for adopters to do.

Hi NN, my dd has a short lifestory book - well, really a few pages stapled together. Many of the photos are of buildings, and the style is not one I would choose. But it was put together by a SW who had never met my dd, because her SW left before doing it (despite my repeated requests that she did so while her memories were fresh). She also didn't follow up obtaining photos promised by the BM and FC.

I do feel sad about this. I appreciate she must have been busy, but she was the only person we knew who had known my dd as a newborn.

Anyway, I do use this when talking with my dd, but I imagine I may make my own at some point, as her understanding becomes more complex I don't think it will do the job.

Now, what do you mean by what do we think of the birth parents? You mean my dd's birth parents in particular, or something more general?

What a pity about the life story book Devora but I know that this was something that rarely got done. One of my colleagues who had some health problems was actually given a part time contract specifically to do life story work with children and start the Life story book which the adopters could add to over time.

It might still be possible to get the information you want. There will be a file on your child and you should be able to have access to it, under the Access to Records Regs. I know 3rd party information can't be shared and some information remains confidential, but I certainly think it's worth asking about this. Presumably you were in touch with the foster carers - if so could you ask her for the photos or get a social worker to ask her. Does your LA have a "letter box" scheme where an annual photo/letter can be sent to the birthparents on an annual basis, with the LA being the intermediary. It should be possible for them to ask the BM for photographs. It might be worth contacting a Post Adoption Service who deal with the three parts of the "Adoption Triangle" related to your concern about lack of information on your child. There may well be one in your area but I'm sure any PAS would be able to help with this issue.

Obviously I have met dozens of birthparents over the years and I know that "working with the birthparents" was always a difficult issue for many foster carers. SO yes I was hoping adopters (or foster carers) might be able to say how they feel about their child's birthparents. I suppose I am thinking more of adopters or permanent foster carers, as short term carers will probably be involved with significant numbers of birthparents.

My feelings towards birth parents have changed over time. Felt guilty initially, that I had 'taken' their child. Then anger as I Look at my child and can see glimpses of the person they would have been had their lives been different. I've also felt sympathy as I can see the cycle of neglect. I was told that the birth mother should have been adopted herself. But now I mostly feel indifference. As time goes by your child belongs firmly to you. My greatest source of sadness ius that I didn't give birth to them.

h parents have changed over time

I didn't know that about the original birth certificate being marked as void on adoption. I thought that adopted children had a right when they turn 18 to ask to see their original birth certificate - is that true, and what is the procedure then if it's been rendered void?