finding mum and dad.....

[crikeybill]

On channel 4. Holy Christ I'm sobbing. I've tried turning it over but I have to know if someone adopts them....

Thanks for your good advice, Nina. Sadly the fc isn't talking to me (long story much retold on other threads!) and she was under disciplinary measures last time I heard so she may no longer be working for the agency. The bm is homeless and has gone awol.

How do I feel about the birth parents? For the birth mother, quite a lot of sympathy, though I've never met her (her choice). From her lifestory and photos she just seems very, very lost and can't find her way back. For the birth father, still a fair bit of sympathy though i wouldn't want to meet him in a dark alley. He's got a spark, a suggestion of what might have been.

But there is a certain amount of anger, inevitably, and guilt, and worry about what will happen if dd wants to contact them in the future. It is probably easier for me because dd was in care from birth. She has not experienced (direct) trauma at the hands of her parents like some.

Mellow, I'm not an adopter or adoptee, but I gather an adopted child does have the right to see her original birth cert at 18. The original, with the birth parents' names etc. still exists, but it's legally void as soon as the child is adopted. It's replaced by an adoption certificate, with the new parent/s' details, and that's what you would use in place of a birth cert in, say, a passport application.

Yes bookend you are absolutely right about the original birth certificate. Some years ago one of my colleagues did a lot of work on helping adult adoptees trace their birthmothers. I think the law then was that anyone tracing a birth relative had to go via Social Services, but I don't think this is the case now.

St Catherine's House in London will provide a copy of someone's original birth certificate for £15.95. I think that's where my colleague used to send off for them, so I googled it, but just looking on google, there seem to be quite a lot of Post Adoption Services who will do this for a charge.

I can recall one or two adopted adults saying that they had found their original birth certificate amongst their parent's papers though I can't recall why they were looking. I do remember though that several adoptees said that they grew up always thinking that something "wasn't quite right" and this was in the days of course when adoption was supposedly kept a secret. I think they gave that advice to adopters with the best of intentions, but it was surprising how many people (other than the child) knew about the "secret" - neighbours, other kids etc. It wasn't uncommon for children to be told by another child that they had been adopted or "your mom isn't your real mom."

The other way that these adoptees found out (and this was very common) about their origins was when the adoptive parents died and they had access to all their documents. This actually happened to my cousin and she was really angry with her mom for not telling her the truth, but that's how it was in those days. My cousin told me that when she was about 10 (must have been about 1930 ish) someone at school said that her mom "wasn't her real mom" and she had told another friend about this when they were walking home from school and the friend had said "don't talk daft course she's your real mom." SO that planted a seed of doubt but she had put it out of her mind. I loved her adoptive mom my aunt and so it was really difficult that my cousin felt so angry with my aunt after her death. She refused to ever speak about her and would clam up if she was mentioned.

Some adoptees just wanted their original birth certificate and I can remember my colleague telling me how shocked they were at seeing that they weren't "David Taylor" but "Billy Jones" though sometimes adopters didn't change their names. Others went on to try to trace birthmothers with varying degrees of success.

I think it so good that we have moved on from those unenlightened times.

Maybe not much interest in sharing thoughts of birthparents. Thanks for your comments Devoraand I can imagine you must be feeling ambivalent about the birthparents. Also have just seen that you are worried about your child trying to find their birthparents, so hope what I have posted hasn't increased your worry or caused you anxiety.

I think Post Adoption Services who keep records claim that most adoptees don't try to trace until their adopted parents have died for fear of upsetting them.

I think the other thing is the difference between the assessment of adopters now and how it was in the past. We used to have old files showing how the "assessment" was done. It was pretty horrendous as it was done by an Adoption Officer and so long as the home was clean and tidy and the garden nicely kept (honestly) and there was a reference from the vicar, that was more or less it. There would be a short para on parenting capacity - Mr and Mrs X will bring the child up in the Christian faith and will make sure they know right from wrong. End of.

I remember one of those "assessments" (probably the whole thing was on a sheet of A4) saying that they family had a "lovely herbaceous border" and of course a clean and tidy home.

Can I ask a genuine question please ?. DH and I watched this program and much to my surprise my husband was more affected by it than me. We have one birth daughter and can sadly have no more of our own, I was gutted and suggested adoption, DH rejected the idea straight away. I have accepted this as it is not the sort of thing you can twist someones arm to do.
However since this program he has asked me lots of questions some of which I couldn't answer.
He had a question regarding the little boy whose little sister was adopted and the little boy was left behind with foster carer. He said that if he had gone to see the little girl and had seen the bond between the two he would have had to take the boy as well.
If you had been approved for a girl aged 2-6 and been matched to this LO and decided you couldn't break up the sibling group could you then apply for both ?

I think you could *Heels but you would need to go back to panel and be reapproved for more than one child and I suspect have some more sessions with a social worker about how having a sibling group might work and change the dynamic, be much more demanding of your attention etc.

Thanks Kew I thought that was probably the case. DH didn't realise that when you are approved you are approved for a specific category of child (sorry not a nice word I know when we are talking about children).
He just thought being approved was just a general thing, he was a bit baffled that adopters could take one sibling and leave the other.

Its rarely a case of taking one child and leaving another. There will have been a decision already made that they would be separated - they may even be living separately already. Its not like you go and pick up a child and drive away with it, the other child pressing it face against the window watching mournfully as you leave!

In my experience (albeit limted) siblings are separately where they are a large group (I know one group of 9 siblings removed separately over a long time frame) or where one child has a particular need which would make them hard to place or if the is violence and /or sexual abuse of one sibling to another (I have also seen this personally)

In fact I think its more common to "bribe" adopters into taking a sibling group because one of them is very young (say under one) than it is the separate younger children just because they are easier to adopt.

I certainly know a couple who adopted a sibling group of three ranging from I think about 8 down to one and the attitude (from social workers) certainly wasnt an assumption that they would be separated because it would be easy to adopt the littlest one.

thanks Kew, DH has a very male simplistic view of adoption. Everything is black and white for him.

I agree with Kews comments and yes there would have been a decision made about whether it was feasible for a sibling group to be adopted or how a particular family should be split.

It would be possible though for adopters to be approved for one child (2 is sibs) so long as the age ranges fitted with your birth children. Adopted children need to be the youngest in the family really.

It's good that your DH is thinking about adoption. Quite often a programme like this will arouse some interest, which may come and go, but does sometimes lead to applications being made to adopt, and as you can see, adopters are desperately needed.

I meant (2 if sibs)

Mellow void means legally void - ie. the birth certificate no longer carries any legal weight and cannot be used. It would be illegal to attempt to use it to get a passport, other legal documents etc. It is marked to identify it as a void document to prevent fraudulent use when sent out to the adoptee who applies for it.

I have copies of my DC's birth certificates which aren't marked out as I got them before the adoption was final. Anyone can get anyone else's BC unless the BC is an adoptee's original BC, so I made sure I applied for copies myself before the adoptions finalised, after which only the children themselves (as adults) can get it.

My 3 have many siblings, and my DD's were both split up from all their siblings before I adopted them. I played no part in this, the determination was made long before I was on the scene. I was approved to adopt 1 child only. Even if i had changed my mind and asked SS if I could adopt 2 of the siblings together the answer would have been 'no' because it had already been decided (quite rightly) that that wasn't a good idea

My feelings towards my childrens birth parents are complicated!

So in all probability, it was already decided that the little boy and his sister should be split, even if the little girls adopters had wanted him too they would have not been approved ?

I am very proud to have a friend and his wife who have adopted two little girls. Neither really wanted babies, so they decided to not try for their own but to adopt (very brave I think). They had a bit of a hard time with the LA, so went to an agency and now have sibling girls.

I wonder if what happened to me still could happen now.

In 1974 I was signed over for adoption by my birth father when I was 2 years old. His name was not on the birth certificate but I did use his surname later in life. My mother changed her mind about me being adopted at 6 weeks and then once I was placed in care at 2 years I was then back and forth between her, foster parents, children's homes for the next 16 years. SS kept giving her chance after chance and while they were supposed to have responsibility SS seemed to have no clue what to do and were bossed around by my mother. SS have no admitted they let me down massively and had no plan for me at all and can't explain why.

It feels like I was in limbo. Mother didn't want me unless someone else did and then when they backed off, so did she. SS were supposed to have responsibility but didn't back that up in reality and I am left now feeling as I do.

PLEASE tell me that just would not happen now.

ToffeeOwnsTheSausage I am so sorry to hear about your experiences. I really, truly hope you have had some counselling and help to begin to work through the experiences you had and have been able to come through it.

I don't know if this would ever happen now. My gut feeling is it would not but I don't know.

Thanks for your reply, Italiangreyhound. I am not as optimistic as you. I think there is an element of what I went through that could happen now and it upsets me to think that another child will have their childhood in limbo and that I would love to be a social worker and a foster carer but feel my background makes that impossible.

I can't imagine that would preclude you from being a foster carer, toffee, as you'd be in a better position of understanding than most. I'm no expert though.
I know of a similar situation. A girl came to our family when she was around 18 months. Birth mother was a mess and couldn't cope, birth Dad also, can't remember whether it was just drugs or other things as well. We had her until she was 3 then she went to an adoptive placement. They already had an older girl, and it was very clear to us (biased as we were, admittedly) that the existing daughter was not looking forward to sharing. I won't go into details but as her foster family we didn't think placing with this family was in her best interests.
Anyway, that adoption didn't go through (problems with the existing daughter, as we'd predicted) and she ended up coming back to us. Contact with birth mum resumed. Then birth mum straightened herself out, got herself a new partner who was clean and supportive, and ss decided birth mum was ready to try again so she went home. We were hoping this was a happy ending, always best to be back with birth mum if problems have been sorted. However, it broke down again and she ended up back in care. Unfortunately we had other foster children by then so she went elsewhere. Happily, she did stay there long term rather than moving around any more. She's now an adult, in a stable relationship, and a mum herself, still very much supported by her foster family. She visited my mum recently as her birth mum had thrown out her life story book and she wanted to see photos of herself as a toddler to compare with her own child (mum still had plenty to show her, I think there's one of her on the wall as well).

I was going to reply to you, nananina, to say that my mum spends hours on life story books for her foster kids!

So, she didn't get an adoptive home, but she did find a long term foster placement who are still supporting her now. I'm sorry to hear your story Toffee, just wanted to share one that I think demonstrates the birth mother was given a good chance but ultimately the child's needs were put first.

barkingtreeefrog - your post moved me, that poor girl though I am glad she is happy and settled now . My mother was given double figure chances and never once was I put first. Probably makes me far too over protective of my children and sometimes I think it would be healthier if I loved them less .

Firstly can I say sorry for asking about birth parents - it was insensitive of me and I should have known that was not a topic for an open forum like this.

Toffee so sorry to hear of your traumatic childhood. In terms of what happens today (and I am looking back over a 30 year span) I think that children are left too long at home, while social workers "support" the family. The duty is to keep the family together wherever possible but I think this goes on far too long in many cases. It was interesting that after Baby P case, applications for Care Orders increased by 50% and clearly this was because social workers were worried or afraid of taking any risks, lest a child on their caseload was killed or significantly harmed.

I think there are fewer incidents of moving a child back and forth between care and birth parents, but I think that too many children are moved between foster carers. This isn't a criticism of foster carers at all, it's just that the demand for placements far outstrips supply and whilst many foster carers are flexible, it does mean that if carers take a child/ren in an emergency (well almost all cases are emergencies really) and they don't really have the room, then the child/ren will be moved to another foster carer when a vacancy arises and so on.

If under 5s are removed from home and the plan is for adoption and a Placement Order is made in Court (this allows the child to be legally adopted) and there is a good match, then their is a reasonable chance of a successful adoption. Having said that, there are so many variables and success of otherwise is dependent on individual children etc., but the statistics do show that the older the child when placed for adoption the higher the breakdown rate. Sorry I don't have exact stats but I'm sure they could be found on the internet.

I think the one thing that doesn't happen now is that children are moved between foster carers and residential care. Residential care is now only used for older teenagers in almost all LAs. At least that's one improvement. When I started social work in the early 80s, very young children were placed in residential care, alongside older kids with challenging behaviour, but thank goodness that is no longer the case.

Toffee I don't mean this to sound patronising but I think it is so brilliant that you give your children the stability and unconditional love that you never had - in my experience it is a rare individual who can do this. And I couldn't disagree more that it would be "healthier if you loved your children less........." Sometimes I think something similar as mine are all grown now but I still worry about as much as when they were little. The things you worry about change obviously but the intensity of the feeling doesn't.........it's a life sentence!

There is absolutely no reason why you couldn't be a foster carer or social worker and if anything your background would be an asset because you would understand from your own experience the distress that children feel about being moved about and split up from their siblings.

Barkingtreefrog that is a sad story and even more sad, it's not that unusual in my experience. It's all so hit and miss in a way isn't it - because if the adoption had worked out, the child would have had a happy stable life, given that she was only 3 when placed. I'm glad that she did find a good foster home in the end though and who are what we call a "family of resource" for her, in the way that we are with our own grown up kids (listen to their woes/share their happiness/"lend" a tenner or so here and there etc)

I always firmly believed and used to tell foster carers that the period of happiness and stability that they were able to give to a child at a particular time in his/her life would stay with them and be a good memory if they were old enough to have this sort of recall of course. I think this was an important message for foster carers to hear when they were feeling badly about a child having to move on, especially if that was back to birthparents and the carers would not be optimistic about the chances of success.

Your mum sounds like a very special person BTF

I'd be a rubbish social worker as I would want to take all the children home and DH said I would want to change all the protocols!

Toffee I don't think you need to love them less!

I wonder if you are at peace now from your past, don't feel you need to answer that , please! But if not, maybe finding that peace (if you ever can) will take some pressure off.

I am a massive fan of talking! Not just airing your laundry or asking advice but really talking it through. I am sure you have had counselling. I have had tons, for anxiety and for fertility; at times also just good old talking to a profesional yet neutral person who understands and cares. I hope you will find that peace and I am sure you are an excellent mum.

I don't know if I'm a peace but I suspect not. On This Morning today there was a woman who has forgiven her rapist. I then thought about whether I should forgive someone who had done similar to me as I have heard that being bitter and unforgiving only hurts you, but I can't. How can I forgive an abuser? Then I thought about whether I should forgive my mother and I can't do that either.

I have had counselling but it has always been a disaster. I am at peace with the fact I'll never get good counselling I guess.

Toffee so sorry to hear of these terrible experiences. I think forgiveness is a very personal thing. I can't begin to imagine how anyone forgives something big. I don't think for a nanosecond that forgiveness is about letting the other person off the hook or anything.

I think at some deep level forgiveness is about releasing something painful you have been holding against yourself, like when you rest your arm on a hard edge of a desk for a long time and it leaves a pain like a repetative stress injury.

But really toffee I know nothing of this. I am a Christian and I think I have had a very easy life, for most of it, so I can't begin to 'preach' to anyone.

I found this site and I am not sure if it is helpful at all
theforgivenessproject.com/about-us/founder/

On that page it says "As Archbishop Desmond Tutu said after I’d finally got to meet him the summer of 2003,

“Forgiveness does not mean condoning what has been done. It means taking what has happened seriously and not minimising it; drawing out the sting in the memory that threatens to poison our entire existence. In the telling of stories like these there is real healing.”

Anyway, Toffee, you sound very strong and wonderful, I just hope you find some peace. Maybe in loving your children so much you are extending that love to the child in you; we all need that love.

I have to go out shortly ItalianGreyHound but I do want to have a think about what you have said and have a chat with you about it, if that is okay?

Toffee that is more than OK. I must say I am no expert on anything but always happy to talk and in no way wish to stir up any unhappy feelings, I just sensed something from your post and am more than happy to chat. PM me.

Hope not to de-rail this thread because I think that the documentary was so good. I hope people are watching it still on on demand.

www.channel4.com/programmes/finding-mum-and-dad/4od