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Telly addicts

Panorama - I want my baby back

996 replies

BeyondTheLimitsOfAcceptability · 13/01/2014 21:29

Anyone watching?

This promoting of the idea that SS want to steal babies makes me very uneasy...

OP posts:
Nightowl12 · 20/01/2014 16:04

No I do agree that scaring people is not the answer. This is not America after all!

WestmorlandSausage · 20/01/2014 18:51

Nightowl12 I am so pleased you have joined this discussion I feel your contributions have turned this into a very healthy debate with very useful ideas about very simple practical ideas that could help parents going through this.

Perhaps we could all work together on a 'mumsnet guide' to child protection? Useful information, what the process is, what the law is, what you need to look for in a solicitor, what you can expect from court, how to best work with social services etc etc?

WestmorlandSausage · 20/01/2014 18:52

with stories from people who have been through it

BeyondTheLimitsOfAcceptability · 20/01/2014 18:57

Thats a brilliant idea! How would we go about asking for it?

OP posts:
Sneezecakesmum · 20/01/2014 19:07

nightowl. Your story highlights exactly the points I made way back in this thread.

There is inadequate research into early radiological signs of vitamin D deficiency in newborns. The expert witnesses are wearing blinkers and refusing to change their view. This is sadly true of many expert witnesses, because to change their view without incontrovertible researched evidence which they cannot ignore, it means they could have been making wrong decisions for decades.

This is why it must be standard practice to blood test the mum and baby, to do bone density scans and an array of other tests to rule this out in babies, particularly in a family which is not on the radar of SS and have never given reason for concern.

As I pointed out the catch 22 is that the parents suspected of child abuse has no say in testing their baby even if they did have the knowledge to do so. When parental rights are removed they are relying of lawyers and SWs to have knowledge of a complex medical condition or even a genetic condition.

As a parent this stacking of the cards against me would terrify me. Sad

EM2003 · 20/01/2014 19:13

Spero, I don't think that all C&FS SWs deliberately set out to drive families apart but I do think that some are entrenched in their views and have little real experience of actual parenting. The theory of parenting is not the same as real parenting. The SW manager initially involved in our case was unpopular with other SWs, solicitors and CAFCASS staff. She was unpleasant and abused her power to the extent that we could not work with her. In collusion with one of the ' experts' she told the court and my employer that I was likely to kill myself and my son because I stopped taking my medication for bipolar disorder. She, and the 'e pert' undermined my own psychiatric team because my psychiatrist would not say what she wanted. Fortunately, she has left South Glos and other families should not suffer at her hands.
The whole system is left wanting. SWs on the ground are not adequately trained to detect real risk, the C&FS system
Is not set up when people move areas, the relation between families and SWs is often strained and parents who do not defer to the SS are deemed uncooperative, CAFCASS is understaffed, there is misperception that CAFCASS and family solicitors are in the pockets of the SS and there is too much secrecy.
I have had my own experience but have also been involved in an internet support group for parents going through the courts. Their stories are heartbreaking. I undertook a masters in mental health law and my dissertation examined the relationship between the child protection and parents with mental illness. These two are not good bed fellows. It is an understudied area it the stereotypical views of mental illness are prevalent. A disproportionate number of parents involved with the SS have mental illness yet SWs have no training in issues arising when parents hAve mental illness. I find this difficult to comprehend.
The SS needs serious reform in order to protect children who need protecting. If a multitude of people were taken to court just to detect one rapist the public would be outraged but we are all led down a path where we believe the SS are protecting children at risk. The public should see evidence that this is not always true.
Calling SWs the SS is purely a reflection of their reputation!

Spero · 20/01/2014 19:44

I think that is a brilliant idea about a mumsnet guide.

There is a lot of good and helpful stuff on the internet but people need to be helped more to find it.

EM2003 - I agree with most of what you have just said.

WestmorlandSausage · 20/01/2014 21:39

it could solve a lot of the issues we have been having in relation to some of the concerns we have had about bad/dangerous/illegal advice. If people like Nightowl12 were able to contribute too that would be fab.

We could have advice/ useful information from parents who have been through it, family law solicitors, child protection social workers, family support workers, GPs or paediatricians, advocacy services CAFCASS etc and anyone else involved remotely in the process. Perhaps adult social care/mental health services social workers who could provide information specifically regarding the support that might be available to parents with either learning or physical disabilities, or mental health problems?

Lots of links to some of the organisations that have put in a lot of hard work around these issues already such as FRG.

Spero · 20/01/2014 21:59

I am in. Happy to write 'brief guide to the law' - could link to the suspicious minds blog and similar resources.

MadameDefarge · 20/01/2014 22:57

Right, I know I have left MN, but for this I will offer my editing/proofing skills.

AnyFucker · 20/01/2014 23:00

Smile I have no relevant skillz, but sounds like a great idea.

WestmorlandSausage · 20/01/2014 23:01

you left!?! How did I miss that

and if you left how did you see this.... Grin

inlovewithgarp · 20/01/2014 23:03

Happy to offer my experience and advice too. Spero knows my story, sure I could help. Would definitely second a link to suesspiciousminds blog - I can email him to verify it's ok if it would help?

WestmorlandSausage · 20/01/2014 23:08

I don't even know how/where to start with this, either contact mumsnet or just do it as a thread? I don't know, anyone know how to ask or find out?

inlovewithgarp · 20/01/2014 23:10

why doesn't Spero write a thread - or a MN blog or summit - with contributors? or links to blogs? sorry Spero...like you're not busy enough!

BoreOfWhabylon · 20/01/2014 23:23

Brilliant idea! I've learned so much from these threads. Sadly have no relevant skills but will cheerlead with pompoms!

MadameDefarge, why have you left? Please reconsider you are neeeded here. And where is Carpe? Haven't seen her lately either. Sad

Spero · 20/01/2014 23:23

Should we do a blog? and see if mumsnet would link/promote it?

I don't want to duplicate the good stuff that is already out there but it seems to me that we have the chance to create something pretty unique as we can offer perspectives from all different users of the service - we have lawyers, social workers, parents, even experts - thedudesmummy popped up on one thread.

I have now qualified as a public access barrister - obviously I am limited as to what I can 'advise' and nor would I want to tread on toes of others' lawyers or get them to disclose more information than is appropriate or lawful but I could possibly offer general advice/tips or signpost people to appropriate legal resources.

I have never set up a blog, i know a few people who have so I could pick their brains but if there is anyone reading who could get us started that would be great.

YoniMatopoeia · 20/01/2014 23:25

I think a mn guide is a genius idea

edamsavestheday · 20/01/2014 23:29

This thread has moved on hugely since I last posted - and in a very positive direction. The handbook idea could be really powerful. As could some way of getting lawyers and doctors together to discuss, regularly, research and developments in child health.

Nightowl, I'm so glad your son is back with you. Appalling that SS threatened your parents - I don't understand what goes through the minds of a SW trying to stop medical investigations. Is it a power trip? A determination not to be proved wrong? A belief that anyone who challenges them must be doing so for nefarious reasons?

I think there is possibly a real gap here that people on this thread are identifying about doctors and lawyers keeping up to date with developments in the field of child health - maybe the systems just aren't in place to support the sort of joint continuing professional development that Spero is talking about.

My interest in child protection is merely as an observer of, mainly, the NHS.
I've had one of the most eminent doctors in the country tell me how he was threatened by a social worker for, quite reasonably, suggesting she was leaping to conclusions about one of his patients whose child had been injured.

He was being a good GP, saying 'let's consider the most obvious cause first' (as in, a red snotty nose and a cough is probably a cold, let's not panic about bubonic plague - or Munchausens - until we've excluded more common conditions). All very rational and routine. But a social worker who got a bee in her bonnet felt able to threaten one of the most eminent doctors in the country for daring to challenge her. That level of determination to twist information to fit the story you've already decided on is not confined to that one social worker, or indeed to social workers. It happens to doctors and nurses and speech and language therapists and other professionals, too.

And how on earth are unjustly-accused parents supposed to manage to challenge unwarranted assumptions when even eminent doctors are told their careers are on the line for speaking up?

If you look at child protection, it's quite striking how some panics dominate for a while, then everyone realises it was all a bit overdone but eventually some other fad gains traction. Satanic abuse. Marietta Higgs. MSbP (then rebranded FII). There are of course abusive parents but it's unlikely that many parents who are ill themselves have Munchausen's, yet at one stage if was incredibly popular, especially amongst everyone who was persuaded by Roy Meadows.

There are some issues that I see affecting child protection that are common in healthcare generally. Mind's Death by Indifference reports show what can go so badly wrong when a group of vulnerable people suffer from prejudice, and the people who should be caring for them treat them with disdain. Nothing to do with child protection, but something relevant about treating families with hostility when they dare to challenge the professionals.

Look at the SN boards - it's not uncommon for some professionals have a patronising attitude towards families, believing that 'we are the experts, if you don't do what we tell you, you are obstructive and difficult- even if we've told you several different things that are contradictory'. That can, in thankfully rare circumstances, turn into 'and we'll protect the patient from you because we know best'/it's ruddy inconvenient to have you hanging around making sure your relative has something to eat and cluttering up our ward'.

Sorry, that's ended up being very long, it's just from being alarmed about child protection sometimes not working very well, I can see lots of parallels in other areas where professionals get things wrong.

Spero · 20/01/2014 23:34

Edam, you are talking sadly about very human problems - this isn't a particular evil of social workers, we ALL defend our patch, we ALL suffer from confirmation bias.

Its just that it has such negative and extreme consequences when SW or doctors do it. Any one who has power over individuals has got to wield it with caution and respect.

I believe Marietta Higgs really thought she was acting in the best interests of the children and was 'saving' them. That is a powerful motivator to push you through others objections or disbelief.

What I think we really need to do something about is the fear and distrust which is currently threatening to overwhelm the system - empower people with knowledge and support so they don't adopt unnecessarily hostile attitudes which will ultimately harm their case.

Figure out ways to disseminate information better.

MadameDefarge · 20/01/2014 23:35

I just won't be posting for a bit. Still lurking, (too addicted to give up entirely) but suffice to say I cant personally manage some of the shit that has come my way. Not to say it was the worst. But just more than I can manage. So I need to withdraw for a bit.

but offer still stands.

AnyFucker · 20/01/2014 23:37

Shit from MN, MDF ? Are you ok ?

Spero · 20/01/2014 23:37

I don't think we will have any problem with content at all - we have already had some excellent stuff from the parents involved.

It's just figuring out the platform. I have no idea how to go about running a blog, i know there are some expenses involved but I guess it depends how sophisticated you want it to be.

Spero · 20/01/2014 23:38

Sorry to hear that Madame but I am glad you are withdrawing, rather than going altogether.

MadameDefarge · 20/01/2014 23:53

To be fair, mostly shit from other posters....MNHQ have done what they can but I am responsible for my own stuff. so I need to walk away for a bit. Perspective an' all that!

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