Panorama - I want my baby back

[BeyondTheLimitsOfAcceptability]

Anyone watching?

This promoting of the idea that SS want to steal babies makes me very uneasy...

Cindy, thanks for coming back and clarifying and apologising. I know this topic makes emotions run high, for everyone on whatever side of the debate.

That is because we all agree just how important it is to get things right because the consequences for the children if we don't are very serious and may have life long implications.

I will just offer one further point - I think it is fair to say that in child protection most professionals will be used to dealing with people who have not held high ranking positions in any field; most of their client base will come from the more disadvantaged groups in society as they are more likely to encounter the inevitable problems arising from poverty (both material and aspirational) and less able to escape from them.

therefore, it does mean that some professionals may find it challenging to deal with people who don't fit their assumptions about what makes a typical 'parent in care proceedings'.

A good dollop of emotional intelligence is needed by everyone. the SW won't help their case by patronising or failing to engage with your family, but nor will you help your case by demonstrating that you think you are superior to the SW in terms of intellectual functioning etc.

they are only human and it will get their backs up.

Of course, you are entitled to expect certain standards of professionalism but we also have to deal with reality and act accordingly.

I always say to my clients - you don't have to LiKE the SW. You don't have to be their friend. But you must be polite and co-operative, even if you need to bite through your tongue to do it.

Anything else just muddies the waters unnecessarily.

And yes Madame, please don't go. I think you make very valuable contributions.

Yes Cindy. That was a handsome apology and I do accept it.

and sorry, when I say 'you' I don't mean a particular 'you' but a more general 'you'.

But I suspect from what you say that your brother in law might be guilty of it...

Before I make my comment, I want to say I have absolutely no beef whatsoever with foster and adoption families. Quite the reverse infact. Without you, many children would languish in children's homes.

The whole issue of baby snatching was real, if it is not so now, I wouldn't like to say. SW's in the maternity wards ready to take babies the moment they took their first breath almost. It was documented by the tabloids, this is where I first heard of it. I have no axe to grind here, my children are grown, so I have no fear of SW, but I do feel many are power hungry.

The family courts do need transparency, not only for the children's cases but in general. I am all in favour of the children remaining anonymous, that should be a given. However, SW's LA lawyers and CAFCASS are, really all in each others pockets and side with each other before a case ever reaches the Judge. Judges too almost always side with the LA. Why? The LA have the funds and CAFCASS to make sure their argument is far more favourable than the poor parents. Parents more often than not have no idea how the courts work, so have to leave it in the hands of others. Experts are usually people who work for the LA in these type of cases on a regular basis, so like CAFCASS it's almost like an old boys club. All those against the parents, with knowledge and expertise against people, sometimes completely innocent trying to keep hold of their beloved children. It is so heavily weighted against the parents as to be laughable only it is anything but funny.

In the case of the children with VitD deficiency piqued my interest as I was diagnosed with the same thing around 18 months 2 years ago. My GP told me at the time, the numbers of people in the Northern Hemisphere who were deficient in VitD was quite staggering. I now just take a supplement and am fine, but I was interested in the case, as I have the same deficiency.

I believe if SW's feel there is just cause to remove a child, then a full screening of bloods, xray's, well every single test there is should be carried out to ensure something as simple as a VitD deficiency is not the cause. While the child is in foster care, there should be as much contact with the birth family that is possible to facilitate, to keep the bonds. Only in the cases where abuse of any kind is proven should adoption be the route. In cases where working with the family and other agencies stands a chance, that has to be tried. If that also fails, sadly adoption has to be the route. Children cannot be taken for possibles, BUT... if there is a risk, no matter how small, the family must be monitored closely including medical and CAMHS if deemed appropriate.

The very best place for any child is with the birth family, where this is not possible, then I think we all agree, our foster parents and adoptive parents are simply amazing people. I would just argue we try as best as we can to keep kids with their families.

Deliberately - have you ever been involved in a court hearing? Or do you get your 'information' about all professionals being in each other's pockets from the tabloids? If the latter, are you not a little bit concerned that the 'facts' may be reported in a sensationalist and inaccurate way to make a good story?

I know of one case where a baby was removed without court order. And that is one case too many I accept. but SW in that case were rightly rebuked by the Judge who was furious - he makes that decision on the basis of the law, no one else.

If you really believe the Judges etc are in the pocket of the LA, why was there any fuss at all about that?

How many cases of taken babies without court order do you know of? And where do you get your information?

I am genuinely interested. We need to address this issue by looking at the facts.

I am afraid I treat tabloid gossip with scepticism.

This article may reassure you, but I accept there is a lot more information in here than you are going to find in either a tabloid or broadsheet newspaper.

www.familylawweek.co.uk/site.aspx?i=ed28647

Hello Spero. As I stated, I have no personal knowledge of SW, but I do have some, from both sides as it happens. I have two cousins who were adopted by my aunt and uncle from a Catholic orphanage, some 50 years ago now, and seeing the SW at their worst (possibly) via a dear friends daughter who fought the system, and won.

I have a friend who is a family solicitor, or was, he got out as he couldn't deal with the situation as it was, it sickened him. However, he was a lawyer at the time my friends daughter was going through her problems. He gave me idea's of what to suggest, mainly reading up and learning as much as possible about the law surrounding children. He suggested I became a McKenzie friend, but I felt I simply wasn't empowered enough and could cause more harm than good.

I don't hold every member of CP in the same vein by saying they are all in each others pockets, but I do state clearly many are. This is one of the main reasons my friend left family law. Children were being removed from parents in the hours leading up to a hearing, as the SW/CP team expected the Judge to simply rubber stamp their request, and more often than not, that is exactly what happened. But what more can a parent expect? The LA have all the knowledge, funds, and experts, parents have nothing more than love for their children.

I did find your comment slightly disconcerting however. The vast bulk of my post was my ramblings at ways we could look at protecting the child, birth parent relationship, which to me and most people I would hope is the most important thing. You chose simply to 'educate' me on my errors regarding the professionals involved.

Because I believe that telling vulnerable people that the SW, judges etc are all in each other's pockets is one of the most serious problems in the debate thus far. - and this must terrify vulnerable people who are repeatedly told of the 'evil' and 'corrupt' family law system.

You may disagree with where I put my emphasis, that is a matter for you.

What a pity your friend just left the law rather than trying to deal with the corruption he saw and making others aware of it. If I witnessed such corruption I like to think I would do something about it.

But in 15 years, I have not.

I have been informed that someone disapproves of my views.Let me be quite clear then.PUNISHMENT WITHOUT CRIME should be banned,forbidden,outlawed etc.No child should be taken from parents who have not committed a serious criminal offence against that child or other children.
Mothers are punished worst of all when their babies are taken at birth even when those mothers have never broken the law.
Why is this system supported by social workers,guardians,so called experts,and some judges? Well "Birds of a feather flock together" or put another way;"Those who live off the rotten system support and defend the rotten system !" No surprises there then...................

How tedious. Mr Joseph comes late to the party to peddle mad conspiracy theories.

Yet again, it is not about the parents, it is about the children. Why do you not understand that?

My previous comment did not appear so I will try again. The individuals who appeared in the Panorama programme were very brave and very honest. These people are my cyber space friends and they have fought hard for their children. Panorama did not tell Of the devastation the intervention of the SS caused to their lives or of the heartache extended families members suffered.
I am a doctor. I am also a person with a chronic, severe mental health problem. I have been involved with the SS. My experience is that the SS try and break down relationshipsbetweens mums and dads, lie, use doctors who support their cause and that they are not necessarily there for the child but to further their own means.
People have their own opinions but do not condemn those parents who are brave enough to speak out in public. They wanted to make the point about some of the reality behind the SS and bravely represented a number of families who have been through similar ordeals.
As parents you know how much you love your children. My friends are no different. Consider carefully the fact that the SS do not always do what is correct, do not always help families to get their children back and most importantly they do not protect children who need them. Every child that has died recently has had SS intervention. Each Local authority says that mistakes have been made and that they will learn from them. There are several more cases pending in the West Midlands. Please do not condemn my friends who spoke out in public.

Mr Josephs, I disapprove of your views, very strongly and have done for years now.

What would you advise a woman who came to you for help, saying she feared a family friend had sexually abused her young child?

Em2003, I am sorry to hear of what you have been through.

I do not for a moment want to deny that your pain isn't real or that SW do not make mistakes.

But one genuine question - why do you think child protection services exist just to break up families? Is this part of a deliberate policy or is the system just not working very well?

Mr Josephs, I am a family lawyer. I represent parents in court and sometimes I win.

Am I one of the people you allege to be 'lining my pockets' from a 'rotten system' ?

Are you alleging that I am corrupt?

Unfortunately the only way the media will get hold of stories is if the family release information to them. Which is invariably when the family feel there has been some wrong-doing. So all the good work done by social workers is not recognised publicly because it would be illegal for the social workers to release information about a case.

I agree - so total openness is going to reveal ALL, including the allegations about what parents did or didn't do.

Mr Josephs, do you still think Vicky Haigh is an innocent victim of a rotten system? Was she punished for no reason at all, just to steal her child?

Mr Josephs, Radio 4 says you have spent £30k so far funding people to leave the UK? Is this true?

What records do you keep of the outcomes for children that you pay for to leave the country?

Mr Josephs, do you know who was advising Lianne Smith to leave the UK?

In the light of Lianne Smith killing her children in Spain, do you feel any disquiet at all about the advice given by John hemming that parents facing care proceedings should leave the country?

forcedadoption

someone disapproves of your views? Everyone disapproves of your views because you're helping criminals to flee the country!

And remember, rape apologists trying to protect rapists "who are not convicted yet" (therefore a not-yet-convicted rapist is not a rapist in your opinion, right?) can get in trouble too because it is a *criminal offence" to ship abusers and child molesters abroad before the trial!

So instead of appearing with your nonsense on threads all over the internet, it would be wiser to choose your wording carefully.

Oh no wait, post again because we can get more screenshots and you sink deeper ;)

So it's ok to drop into a thread, make provocative comments then never come back and answer any genuine and reasonable questions?

I am so shocked and surprised by this

I am fairly sure Mr Josephs has not gained any new recruits based on that pile of unsupported piffle.

I have to comment on this thread because this topic is very close to my heart and I'm tired of people throwing accusations around. That I'm afraid is one of the massive problems high lightened in this program!

I was vitamin d deficient before, and during my pregnancy. My son was born with low vitamin d however I had no idea at the time the effect it could have.

My son suffered 3 broken ribs which were dated around the time he was born and a few weeks after. My son then suffered a broken femur at just 6 weeks old to my complete and utter horror. While in hospital I was told that it was likely to be abuse. Ss and the police turned up within hours. Questioned me and the father with out lawyers and took the keys to my home and ransacked the place looking for signs of blood. During the time my son was in hopistal I had no idea about vit d. I just remember thinking surely the doctors will test for everything as it's their job. I started to research and dissovered the problem concerning vit d. I went to the hospital to see my son. I tried to talk to the doctors about what tests had been carried out but they refused to tell me or tell me anything. I asked over and over and all I ever got was a snotty reply. Once my son was discharged from hospital he was put into foster care. The foster carer at one point rushed my son to hopistal as he was inconsolable and feared he had suffered another break. Guess what. The hospital DID NOT do any X-rays. What surprised me is that my sons had different rib fractures that went undetected by myself and midwives and health workers who visited my home in the first few weeks of my son being born. It was only when he suffered the broken femur that they were noticed as they did a full body xray.

My son thankfully was then moved into the care of my parents. I called great ormand street hospital for help to get the right tests done. They agreed, but my son just needed a letter from his gp. My parents got the letter from the gp and were going to take him when ss found out. They forbid my parents from taking him. Otherwise my child would be removed from their care.

I took psychiatrist tests because ss wanted me to and I'm as same as the next person. Then I was accused of taking drugs so I had to have hair strand tests and they came back completely normal as I knew they would.

Once I court I fought for medical. One of the experts used and payed for by ss who was involved in some of the cases on this program said no way medical. It was abuse. He did not see my son, only based his opinion on X-rays. He DOES NOT BELIEVE in the vitamin d epidemic and had stated it clearly. He was involved in the case where the parents where recently nearly put in jail for mirder ( as seen on the program) they seem to use the same experts for medical reports. The ones who do speak out otherwise end up being struck off the list of witnesses because they cause too much trouble. Just like Dr Patterson who believes temporary brittle bone desease exists. As a child is born they start to build up their own vit d levels. So during that time they are more prone to fractures till they basically top up their Vitamins themselves. It took me two years to get my son home but I did it.

I'm not saying that it is all social workers faults. Or doctors. The problem is that parents are not innocent untill proven guilty but rather guilty untill proven otherwise. We give murderers and rapists more right to a fair trial!! Parents should be given the same treatment. They should be able to get their own reports done. And should be aloud to seek help should they wish to. I do agree that childrens name must be kept withdrawn as it is only fair to them.

I am not trying to tarnish any profession here with the same brush at all. There are children who do sadly get abused an parents who do lie about it. However we just need the system to be fairer to give everyone a fair trial

Nightowl, I am glad you got your son back and I am sorry it has been such an ordeal.

I think the problem we have is that the courts do want to err on side of caution - if they leave children at home until there is proof beyond reasonable doubt that they were abused by a parent, there is a serious risk some children will continue to be left in a dangerous situation.

I think we should definitely have a debate about where the balance should lie, but I am glad you don't think the whole system is corrupt.