Panorama - I want my baby back

[BeyondTheLimitsOfAcceptability]

Anyone watching?

This promoting of the idea that SS want to steal babies makes me very uneasy...

Sorry for spelling mistakes typing that out on a small screen was hard work.

Nightowl, that sounds like an awful experience. Can I ask how you got your child back? You presumably were able to get your own medical reports or the original experts backtracked? Did you have legal representation?

Nightowl12

Thanks for posting that and sorry to hear you had such a horrific experience :(

I am glad your son was given back to you

By the way, rapists get fair trials because they can hire the best lawyers and society believe that all rape victims are "guilty" until proven innocent, not the rapists.
Maybe it is time to change the current medical practice too and that further tests are needed before stating that a child is abused.
(Might add that a child can be abused without breaking him in two... Honestly!)

Here social workers failed to 'snatch' the baby before it was too late:
www.express.co.uk/news/uk/454349/Social-workers-failed-to-save-little-Rio-s-life

I understand from every view. I really do. However we give proper criminals a much fairer trial. Which is unfair.

I had a rubbish solicitor at the start which didn't help. It's hard to know who's a good solicitor an who is bad. I ended up fining a good one who fought for me to get my own repeats done by proper specialists.

Rapists and murderes get good lawyers because of, and sadly, the press and exposure those cases get.

Reports! Sorry auto correct hates me.

I am so sorry about your experiences nightowl. As I've said, I have health issues which are also genetic, so may yet discover my children are affected. I 100% agree with people wanting procedures improved, and will never argue against that, what I dont agree with is that all ss are out to steal children and will lie and cheat their way to getting them removed.

Which is why I am not going to get drawn into a 'debate' with mr josephs upthread, as he is nothing more than a tunnel visioned, professional troll.

Nightowl, I think the reality is that your rubbish solicitor was one of the main problems. Social services have no choice but to act on what the medics are telling them, so the best defence is to get your own reports and to have a lawyer who will find the weaknesses in the LA case, and will not allow social workers to play silly games like preventing your parents from getting a second medical opinion.

There isn't any magic in being accused of rape that means you get the best lawyers. One of the main problems is that legal aid pays so badly that it is driving some very good lawyers out of the system - which is not something that the likes of John Hemming are interested in remedying. However, if you look at something like Chambers Guide to good lawyers that's usually a good way of tracking down a competent lawyer.

I'm glad the system worked for you in the end.

I'm not saying anyone here is right or wrong. I've been through it so I see it in a different way to people who thankfully have not been in this position.

There is a lot of small errors within this system that make a big impact in the end. Those being bad solicitors, tests not being carried out, parents being aloud to get reports done independently, ss getting in the way of said tests being done.

I do see things differently because of my experience. However I know and I do understand peoe have jobs to do. And I get that. I'm not pointing the finger here and blaming any one or any profession. It's the small things that need to change to make the bigger picture a more fair place for all. Parents need the freedom to seek help so they can find the right solicitors. And to get the correct tests done and etc.

I don't think social services are trying to snatch children. Imagine the work load they would have. They have too much of a work load as it is!! And that sadly is part of the problem with them. They have so many cases that they can't give the time that they should for every case. And again it's the small things that add up to mistakes being made.

I've been though a bad time. I could be angry and point fingers, but I don't because I can see there's a lot that can be changed in different areas of the system.

It is not the SW who prevent expert opinions being obtained - it is the court and Legal Services Commission.

If you can pay privately, I assume the court will be OK with you commissioning whatever reports you like.

But vast majority of parents in care proceedings won't have access to that kind of cash.

The Gov have also tightened up rules on when an expert may be instructed - the test used to be 'reasonably required' now the test is 'necessary'.

The view of Munby and gov seems to be that the Guardian and SW is only 'experts' that will ever be needed. This may be right in cases NOT requiring medical evidence.

But this is why I am so frustrated with current 'debate' - whilst air time is given to men like Hemming and Josephs, we are distracted from the Government quietly dismantling the legal aid system and making it more difficult to instruct experts.

Even taking legal aid away in some cases.

Sadly no I did not have the type of money they were taking about. And most people don't have that type of money hanging around any way, not org the way the economic climate is at the moment.

I think john hemming means well. But saying parents flee the country is a bit extreme. That's only going to cause alarm and make parents do silly thing which is not needed. Perhaps he was trying to be dramatic to make a point but that was too much. He needs to focus on othe areas that could and can be changed.

Only sma changes need to be made to make the bigger picture better and fairer. No one wants to remove soci services or doctors or expert witnesses. That's going the wrong way and real abusive parents will continue to do harm

I think a lot of the parents who, like me are passionate and angry. I don't blame them, I've been there, and in sure many you would agree if you're put in that position you are more emotional, especially when your children are involved.

Now that my case is over and I am living a normal happy life I can see reason. So we must not think people who wrote I these things are being shallow minded or stupid. But we must consider what they have been through or have been connected with and give allowenses. Of this debate happened a year ago my response will probably have been a lot different.

People handle their emotions differently. We can't go about calling and accusing each other things other wise it makes us as bad as what we are all debating. We need to have an open mind and appreciate that while we all might not agree and have our own views which we are entitled to, we have to leave hate and name calling out of this (not saying any one is by the way, just puttin it out there)

Nightowl - thank you so much for posting. One of the frustrations of posting as an adoptive parents on these threads is that people mistakenly believe that we are trying to defend the system as it stands and don't believe that things could be improved. It bothers me enormously that the "opposition" (as it were) are not campaigning for the things which might make a real difference to parents (and children) that Spero has mentioned above eg funding for expert witnesses, funding for improving the workload of social workers, improving funding for vulnerable parents before crisis point is reached. They are instead more interested in posturing and grandstanding on websites and in the media.

Ij in particular (and JH sits on the fence) seems to believe children should be left with their birth parents regardless of the neglect or danger pretty much until the police walk in to find the parents in the process of breaking a childs arm.

One of the interesting things for me to have come out of these threads is that I have started reading familylawweek.co.uk and for example read a case yesterday where social services applied to court to lift the placement order on a child because they felt that with the additional support they had put in place for the mother that it was safe for the child to be returned to her mother. The childs guardian ad litem wasn't so convinced but was sufficiently uncertain that the judge found for SS and the parent and the child was returned. Not very good conspiracy there - they obviously need a refresher course.

It has also been an eye opener to me how many cases of broken bones where the parents have claimed that it might be a genetic/health reason for the breaks and heaps of expert witnesses have been called in to ascertain that it wasn;t actually possible (in one case I read) and the parents subsequently admitted that the damage was "probably" caused by one of them

I have supported a freinds who was accused of abuse and I remember how intimidating and scary to was and it wasn't even my child! I can;t imagine how much of a nightmare it was for you and hope that you have been able to move on afterwards without being too much of the nervous wreck that I would be in your position.

Thanks so much to night owl and kewcumber for being prepared to discuss, not just make generalised assertions about corruption et al.

Fwiw, as a lawyer, I would dearly love to see better and more open channels of communication between experts - maybe half a day conferences every six months or so updating us to developments in medical research/discoveries so we are more clued up about when to ask for an expert and who to ask?

If gov. Funded this, they would get a return on their money very quickly as I bet we could simplify and speed up cases - it should never have taken two years for nightowl to get her son back.

It's a very delicate line. Now that the vitamin d problem is out there as something that is very real how many abi's I've parents are going to use it as a way out.

But how about those who are innocent.

That's the problem is finding a balance so children and parents get the best outcome possible.

That is the real issue here. Finding that place where we can catch the abusive perpetrator, and not let them slip through the net, while also making sure the innocent dont get accused of something they didn't do. It's very very difficult to find that very thin line.

I agree. The amount of money that is payed on these cases is astounding. I think my solicitor said that my ( including all fees like reports, ss, meetings, foster homes, family centres) the whole lot, ended up being towards the £500,000 mark. That's just mind blowing.

I'm not saying money is the most important thing here , far from it. But it's a different view people can see it from to get a different understanding of these cases.

Imagine what we could do with just that £500,000 to improve things so it's better for all? And that was just on one case.

That's shocking - but not surprising. I am glad as a society we take this seriously enough to spend big sums on child protection BUT the amounts wasted in lack of proper analysis at an early stage must be staggering and that money could go to much, much better use.

Maybe doctors could be persuaded to do short talks on updates in their field, a bit like the TED talks? I don't want to try and oversimplify everything, but as I have said before, one of the big dangers in this field are the 'unknown unknowns' - when you DONT know that you don't know about something.

Sounds like a good idea.

Even something simple like vitamin d supplements to pregnant woman. And vitamin d tests part of a standard procedure with unknown fractures being presented at hospital.

I know there are more unknown medical issues. I'm just going on what I know about the most really.

And information presented as clearly and simply in some Child Protection Handbook, that could be valuable reference tool for SW, parents AND lawyers. Link to a website with frequent updates and telephone help line if possible.

I don't know if this would cause more harm than good, because I know a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it would be so helpful to have a clear and accessible source of info about various injuries to children.

For eg doctors tell me 'it is very rare to have accidental bruising to the face' but they don't tell me where they get that knowledge, HOW do they know this? So it makes it difficult to challenge. Are there studies? Who is collecting data?

The fact that I don't know if some one is already doing this is proof to me at we need a more concentrated effort to all 'work together' as we are supposed to.

Although I do have a. Handbook on Signs of Sexual Abuse.

Problem is the author is Professor Sir Roy Meadows....

That does all make sense.

I know some one earlier mentioned that they bruised easily. And there is a genetic chance she can pass it into her children. There are so many different things it's just where to begin??

Just to point this out somewhere, pregnant women are told to take vit d supplements (recently anyway). I remember being told with ds2 and the advice on the gov website has last summer on the date, dont know if thats an update though

It is an update. I was not told when I was pregnant with my son.

It's was crazy I was told the vitamin d epidemic was not real yet I kept seeing things and adverts where vitamin d was being advertised in childrens yogurts on the tv. It was very frustrating that it happened a year after my nightmare began

Spero

Although I do have a. Handbook on Signs of Sexual Abuse. Problem is the author is Professor Sir Roy Meadows....

Must send you a better one by post. Some of these books are totally bollocks

nightowl12

JH and IJ don't mean well at all or they would help all parents regardless of the fact their case is 'special' or not. Instead they believe and promote conspiracies and abuse myths and that adds to the confusion, it doesn't help the issue at all. Scaremongering is never the solution. Sitting down and speaking about what and how can be improved is.