Make me a German, BBC 2

[ImperialBlether]

Anyone watching this? I wondered how long they were staying for, given that they are leaving their elder two children in the UK.

The Raven Mother thing is very interesting, how the hell did Angela Merkel get to where she is though? She obviously goes against the grain.

I grew up in Germany (left about 6 years ago) and I feel that the programme was very much 'flavoured' by the area the family lived in. Things like the forest kinder garden are by no means standard and if they had lived in a more socially and economically deprived area (especially in the former East where salaries are still lower than in the West and unemployment is higher) they would definitely find many 'artificially lit' nurseries and kinder gardens working mums rely on for childcare. I must say it annoyed me a little how 'selective' the programme was in its scope.

Angela Merkel doesn't have children.

Rant over

I viewed the programme as a snapshot rather than assessment of life in Germany. It would be a bit like doing a programme about living in Manchester and assume it applied to the rest of the UK. Some of it would but lots wouldn't.

I'm living in Germany and found it very interesting. It made me appreciate a lot of the things I enjoy about living here. But yes, a lot of the child related stuff was well just 1 tiny peace of a bigger picture. The school didn't really get a mention ....

Forgot to catch this programme. Which part of Germany?

I think they said it was Nuremberg.

Agree with comments that it wasike UK in 60s and 70s. Families living well on one wage, most Germans buy German products can't remember when I last bought UK made product of any value, mum stays home to take care of dcs
The wife was fed up as no real choice to work or not assumed you would give it all up to be FT SAHM like in 60s UK. Whilst I admired The Germans' work ethic and people of all abilities finding reasonable jobs I also found it quite a controlling society especially towards women

Thanks, Squoosh.

I believe Nuremberg is in the south in the state of Bavaria which is generally wealthier with more conservative and traditional attitudes than in other parts of Germany.

It's not a series, it's a German season on the BBC. I am very interested as I have a few German friends and we go on holiday to Austria every year. Just catching up on the Rick Stein programme. Can't stand him but I'm interested in the food. A brilliant German woman just sang a Beatles song with her ukulele and really gave it some welly - brilliant! Will watch Justin Rowlatt tomorrow.

I guess this is part of the German season on BBC2? I'll have to get my German DH to watch it on Iplayer. None of the things on this thread match up with things he says though. Especially about attitudes towards women.

It was just so awfully clicheed and lazy. Not as bad as Rick Stein's program about German food but still bad.
I could have found them loads of women to talk to who are mothers and work even with children under 3 years or women who are furious about the lack of childcare which would allow them to hold a full time job. I could also have found them at least 2 fathers who are currently on paternity leave (one of them for 4, the other for 6 month).

I am with Gracelo. Very clichéd and blending out a whole different Germany.

This is bothering more than it should really.
All my female cousins with children and my sil have stayed at home with their children for a while, most of them the full 3 years per child that they could take by law and have their jobs kept open for them and all of them are back in work and all of them are in good positions. My sil is deputy head of a social services department, one cousin is head mistress of a special needs school another is the main house keeper (not sure if that would be the right job title in GB, probably not) of a very large hospital. I have friends who went back to work after one year and others who went into part time work for a bit.
In the program it came across as if German mothers are out of the workforce for ever and that is just nonsense. Also, I haven't actually heard the term Rabenmutter used in years.

It certainly presented German mothers as being out of the workforce once kids appeared on the scene. I was surprised as I'd always assumed German society was very similar to Scandinavian countries where stay at home mothers are a bit of a rarity.

ha, DP works in Germany for a German company and they are all on facebook, Skype etc at work. As long as they get the work done the company are happy. Must depend on the industry though. It's a gaming company so more informal & tech friendly than most.

I can't think of many mothers who aren't working at least part time once their children are 3. This might still be different in very rural and traditional parts, like the very southern bit of Bavaria and Baden-Wuertemberg but even in Nuernberg (which is Middle-Franconia, part of Bavaria but culturally very different from the proper Bavaria) I'm sure most mothers will go back to work at some point. The biggest problem is finding child care that fits with working hours but this is less of a problem in bigger cities and there are laws now which require councils to provide sufficient creche places.
I also think that if anyone would mention Sunday noise laws to the people in the neighbourhood of Hanover where my brother lives they would be laughed at and ignored. Again this feels very quaint and very rural.

I made me German 4 years ago, when I took on German citizenship. I didn't have to 'give up' my UK citizenship, but now my passport has run out and I didn't bother renewing it. The programme dealt too much with just stereotypes and 'averages' - but there is obviously much more to being German than just eating pork and drinking beer (two activities which no one in my family does!).

I moved to Germany from the UK 32 years ago. I do about 30 minutes of housework a day, share the cooking, and shopping with my husband and we have a Turkish cleaning lady who comes in for 3 hours once a week. I also have 3 children (now all 'grown up') and am a university professor, so I guess that is 'professional'. But we are not 'average' - and live in our own house, not a rented flat. The TV programme was very much directed at some kind of typical 'average' family. Rented flats do have 'rules' - mostly concerned with cleanliness (cleaning the stairs), and noise - but you can definitely use dishwashers, washing machines and even hoovers on Sundays - (but maybe not hang out washing in the 'public' areas). The lack of all-day schools, emphasis on mum's helping kids with their homework, not enough childcare facilities, and a tax structure which makes it seem like it is not 'worthwhile' for mothers to go back to work part-time is the reason why (in the past) many women stayed at home or only worked part-time with children. Career women often just don't have children - but also find it difficult getting to the top in a primarily male working environment. However, things have changed a lot during the past 30 years, and are still changing. Now more young dads are taking 3 months or more parental leave, and with guaranteed childcare provisions theoretically now becoming a legal right as of this month - more young mums will definitely be going back to work once their children are 1 or 2 years old. But not all children in Germany attend 'Forest Kindergartens' - although they do exist - and although the children start school late (6 or even 7) - they then have to work hard.

What's good about living in Germany? The political system - without the Green Party they would not have abandonned nuclear power stations, ecological awareness, community spirit, nice living environment (we live in a small town with next to an organic farm, but just 40 minutes direct train link to downtown Frankfurt) - the wine festivals, arts and culture, open-minded people, workplace co-determination, bike paths, good sports facilities.

Angela Merkel does not have any children. You have to have children to be a mother!

I didn't recognise the Germany I know either. Rabenmutter is pretty much an obsolete term, and I found it odd that it was even brought up. Of course, the programme was a tiny slice of one part of Germany, but it wasn't really relevant to the modern Germans I know (Koln area).

I agree that most of the German's I know place a greater priority on bringing up their own children than British politicians would like us to do in Britain. Whether this is due to the school system and set up, I don't know.

I missed the very beginning of the programme. The parents came across as a London media-type couple - were they?! I also found the mother very sneery about women who want to look after their family, as if she didn't believe it was possible that anyone would want to, and her way was better. If she'd been a bit more open-minded I might have listened more to the very valid points about lack of female representation in board rooms in Germany.

I'd love to live in Germany again. I loved the community feel, and have found (contrary to stereotypes) that Germans have the best sense of humour in Europe!

I know Angela Merkel doesn't have children. I meant as a woman in a society with an apparently very sturdy glass ceiling how did she get to where she is.

'Angela Merkel does not have any children. You have to have children to be a mother!'

Thanks for that, most insightful.

They both work for the BBC Orla he as a reporter and presenter, she is a producer for the BBC World Service. I googled them.
I'd be curious if she would be quite that dismissive of mothers who stay at home for a while to look after their children if she were stacking shelves at Tesco herself or some similar job.
I had no choice but to go back to work when ds was 3 month old due to the fact that my employer only pays statuatory maternity pay and our family situation and I was envying my German friends their option of staying at home.

I didn't think Bee Rowlatt came across as sneery at all. She just genuinely wondered how you are supposed to combine a career with a school day that finished at 11.15am. I appreciate that not all German schools may do this but this was the discussion she was having with a group of mothers and their reality.

Angela Merkel as succeeded in the same way as my German female friends, unburdened by having to deal with children and childcare issues and free to pursue their careers unfettered.

Having said that I don't think the UK is utopia for working mothers.