The White Queen

[ShadeofViolet]

Anyone else ridiculously excited?

I know Philippa Gregory's books tend to be a bit Barbara Cartland in places, and I hope the BBC havent increased it, but I still cannot wait to watch it.

Hairpins I don't know how much of it they will show but there is a rather nasty stillbirth / neonatal death coming up shortly, involving the Neville sisters.

(Sorry, trying to avoid obvious spoilers for those who haven't read the books / know the history!)

If they were all the right ages it would come off a bit Narnia.

I didn't get the 'religious zealot' vibe of Margaret (in this version, I mean), I just get 'overacted'. Sure, she claims she's had a vision but she was ridiculously OTT before that.

I also think wanting to be a nun as a child in late-medieval England is pretty normal, especially if you know the other alternative is early marriage and the possibility of dying in childbirth. I mean, it wouldn't be anything like so indicative of excessive religious devotion as it is today.

Richard III was born in October 1452, so he was still only 8 when Edward took the throne, George was 11. They were 11 and 14 when Edward married, Elizabeth's sons by John Grey were about 9 and 8 and the future Henry VII about 7.

at Narnia!

Perhaps we could put some of it down to premature ageing due to the hardships of medieval life?

By the time he died, Wasn't Edward supposed to be a bit of a bloated mess I always got the impression that Henry Viii took after him in a big () way

I think kidney trouble ran in that family - you end up bloated. But I am basing this on Anya Seton, who is incredibly picky about research but also a fiction writer.

'Katherine' is a long held fave!

Henry VIII was definitely very similar to Edward in terms of looks, build, gluttony and lustfulness. He was a walking catalogue of the seven deadly sins. Edward was apparently like a reverse bulimic - he would regularly gorge himself, and then make himself sick so he could fill his stomach all over again. No wonder he didn't live long.

I have not read the books so can't comment but I must admit I thought elizabeth's children all looked older that they were supposed to be. and as someone who is interested in historical costume, I thought putting zips in the dresses was unforgivable. Picky I know! I like my historical writers to do thier research, Anya Seton is good also Norah Lofts/Jean Plaidy.

I love 'Katherine'. I was really annoyed when a bio of Katherine Swynford came out a few years back, claiming to be all new and revolutionary, and basically said what Seton had said ... and what Seton had provided details of her research for ...

Yay Norah Lofts.
So underrated.

Her sons at the moment are from her first marriage, they're Thomas and Richard Grey.

She later has Edward, Richard (clearly short on baby names...) and George (who died as a toddler). Edward and Richard are the princes in the tower.
Just to confuse things further, Edward's brother Richard named his son Edward, and their other brother George called his Richard and Edward!

Margaret Beaufort is FAR too old in the series, she was 13 when Henry was born, and whilst the royal children aged 4 years, Henry didn t age at all!! I'm really enjoying the series, but its little things like this that bug me!

sugar I've just read that this morning. I knew it happened, but I was a bit surprised at how much PG has embroidered it. Fingers crossed that isn't shown!

That's normal, though. It's not being a zealot, it's a normal course of life for a woman in her era.

Lots of men and women would effectively 'retire' to a monastery, and the differences between widow's clothes and nun's habits wasn't very marked.

I do know she has a reputation for being devout, but quite a bit of that is based on Fisher's eulogy for her, and of course eulogies do tend to paint a picture of Christian devotion rather than, say, ambition.

She comes across as rather more bloodthirsty when you look at some details - she nicked Richard III's prayerbook that he'd taken with him in his tent at Bosworth field, but couldn't be bothered to cross his name out properly in the prayers. To her it was just a trophy, I guess.

Hmm, I think people these days are mostly very bad at being prepared to understand medieval women's religion sensitively on its own terms.
'Zealot' is a very negative word for something that made a lot more sense in the context.
Like your point about widows/nuns' dress, LRD.
Haven't read any of Margaret Beaufort's own writings but I would deffo invite Margery Kempe to a party....

That's true ... I think it is really hard for us to see religion in a positive light. And I think we often look at things people did back then that were explicitly related to religion, and assume they were being devout. But they could have been being ambitious - just covering up with some expedient devotion.

I think Cecily Neville was definitely like that.

LaQ, have you never met any really entertaining nuns?
I have been to parties which had nuns at who were a hoot. You must be going to the wrong parties

I want to know the nuns you know!

I listened to someone give a paper about piers plowman and rap music in front of two or three nuns who placidly followed through handouts full of less-than-demure language. It was fun.

I think (seriously) that these days you would have to be very calm to be a nun, rather than flying off into visions and passions. Maybe less so then, to be fair.

Oh it was years ago LRD. These days I never go to parties.