The White Queen

[ShadeofViolet]

Anyone else ridiculously excited?

I know Philippa Gregory's books tend to be a bit Barbara Cartland in places, and I hope the BBC havent increased it, but I still cannot wait to watch it.

Yes, I am! I changed it a little while ago but might change back at some point.

I probably put what I was trying to say badly. I expect there were women who aped excessive piety. But the point is, the sort of piety you're describing wasn't excessive - it was quite normal. And I'm not convinced that MB (or anyone else) would necessarily have seen it as deliberately deceptive to perform pious practices whilst being ambitious in a worldly way. Piety was just so central to people's ordinary lives.

I'm thinking of Margery Kempe because tunip mentioned her - but now, she is excessively pious, and people struggled with her because of it.

Btw this is a minor niggle, but something I find implausible about the whole series is how religious practice just doesn't really feature unless you're on your knees (on the eighteenth-century tombstones ) being histrionic. Yet they've gone with Jacquetta doing magic. I find it odd doing one and not the other, if you see what I mean.

'Btw this is a minor niggle, but something I find implausible about the whole series is how religious practice just doesn't really feature unless you're on your knees (on the eighteenth-century tombstones ) being histrionic.'

Yes, yes, yes, and it's not minor, it's massive

It's just as symptomatic of what's wrong with this dramatisation as the good-people-don't-wear-hats thing. Behaviour that is alien to us must be WEIRD done by WEIRD people, they can't be normal people doing what's normal to them.

Just out of interest, are the Greys related to Lady Jane Grey.

I suppose Magaret Beaufort didn't have mumsnet so to her prayer was her only outlet.

also it was probably better to be seen to be overly religious otherwise you may be accused of witchcraft etc even if your heart wasn't really in it.

I do believe though that some people were devout and maybe she was one of them.

Accusations of witchcraft are pretty rare, TBH. I think being accused of heresy would be more of a real-life worry. But yeah, I'm sure that's true about people needing to toe the line.

It would be absolutely fascinating to know for certain.

Jane was born around 1536 and Elizabeth Woodville died in 1492, so I think Jane would have grown up knowing people who knew Elizabeth quite well.

Oops, sorry, missed your post tunip - yes, agree absolutely.

Though I am still clinging to the hope this week's ep will be better, because I want to enjoy it.

Jane Grey wasn't 200 years after Elizabeth Woodville though...

But the whole genuinely devout vs lipservice split is a very modern way to think about it.
It was a way of life, and what you did in terms of religious observance and good works mattered more than what you thought about the whole thing in your head.

They were ALL very religious though, weren't they? Even Anne Boleyn, who has been called a heretic, was in favour of church reform vs lacking catholic faith. All the statements she made before she died indicate she kept her faith. Ditto Katherine of Aragon and Henry VIII

Yeah, and that's what bugs me about the Jacquetta witch bits. I know she had that reputation and it's not unthinkable there was something behind it, but it would have been connected into Christian rituals or at least Christian symbols. People were worried witches wanted to use bits of the Eucharist in their spells. Just being indifferent to Christianity doesn't seem that likely, and yet most of the characters are shown that way.

Are the books the same?

I read the White Queen and the Kingmakers Daughter, and it is all politics and sex. Religion played very little part.

And it bigs up rumour. Alison Weir can be a bit wordy but she at least does her research and puts forward the most likely hypothesis, based on the written record.

I do like a Philippa Gregory though. She tells a good tale, though history lite.

That reminds me of the bit in Eamon Duffy about holy water being kept under lock and key in case people nicked it and used it for witchcraft.

LaQ - if you're interested in getting into people's heads in this period, read something on religion like The Stripping Of The Altars. It is hefty but fascinating.
I don't think we can understand them at all unless we understand their religion.

Read Marking the Hours! I love Marking the Hours.

Also, it is just the right size to use as a rest for my laptop when I'm MNing curled up on the sofa.

Elizabeth was Lady Jane Greys Great, Great Grandmother. lady Jane Grey's Great Grandad wa she olde rof her two sons from her first marriage

Wtf! That's not what I typed!

'Was the older of her two sons by her first marriage'

Ooh, that made my eyes go funny.

I think they look alike, but maybe that's just me reading into it?

OK, let's see if I can get this right;

Eliz Woodville > Eliz of York > Mary Rose who marries Duke of Suffolk > Frances Brandon > Jane

Eliz Woodville > Grey son > Grey grandson > Grey great-grandson marries Frances Brandon > Jane

Yes! And, of course, they were related in more than one way...all that inter marriage

I have family tree software, I often think I should stick them all in to work out the relationships in my head. Then I think about uploading my tree to Genes Reunited or some such and confusing everyone that I am indeed posh.

Ha! There must be someone on Mumsnet descended from Elizabeth Woodville. Probably a few dozen.