The White Queen

[ShadeofViolet]

Anyone else ridiculously excited?

I know Philippa Gregory's books tend to be a bit Barbara Cartland in places, and I hope the BBC havent increased it, but I still cannot wait to watch it.

[RhondaJean]

*reign

[LadyEnglefield]

The city of York supported the Lancastrians to begin with but became "Yorkist" during Richard's time as "Lord of the North" as shown in the following announcement on his death...

?King Richard, late mercifully reigning over us, was through great treason . . . piteously slain and murdered, to the great heaviness of this city,? reported the mayor?s serjeant of the mace a day after Richard?s death at the Battle of Bosworth on August 22, 1485.

A very brave act in light of what happened after the battle. Henry tried to date his reign from 21 August so that all those who fought for Richard could be regarded as traitors to the King and their lands seized!

[AgnesBligg]

I think York welcomed Edward iv after the horrible battle at Wakefield, when the dad Richard and oldest son Edmond were slaughtered and their heads spiked at Mickelgate.

That episode was so so sad. Poor Richard, though he got a bit peculiar in the last couple of episodes didn't he.

Beaufort wringing her hands at the battle was a bit silly but it makes sense from a telly point of view - quickly reminding us what her god's mission was and that achievement - Henry crowned.

Dodgier still was Richard saying of Anne Neville, She wasn't supposed to die, not yet!

[AgnesBligg]

Even dodgier than that - ranting to myself now was wearing his twattish crown to the battle! Why did he do taht!

[EvilTwins]

Dunno, Agnes, but it would seem that bit was true - analysis of the skull found in Leicester shows that his crown was driven into his head during battle linky

[Tiredemma]

The wearing of the crown over his helmet is supposed to be true- It was apparently found under a Hawthorn bush and Lord Stanley allegedly did present it to Henry Vii. I think I read that his head injuries were consistent with having the helmet rammed against his skull but this wasn't conclusive- as he also apparently sustained a head injury whilst being hauled back into Leicester.

Aneurin Barnard (who I have developed an unhealthy perversion over) had apparently 'studied' Richards injuries from the neck up so as to make it as accurate as possible on screen (through make up etc).

[Deathbyladybirds]

Would richard really been allowed to marry his niece? I thought the bible forbad it?

[alemci]

do you think things would have been better for Richard if he had respected his brother's wishes and ruled as a protector for Edward V. I wonder if his undoing was breaking that promise?

[diddl]

But when the children were declared illegitimate, he had to take the title, didn't he?

[clarabellabunting]

"I think York welcomed Edward iv after the horrible battle at Wakefield, when the dad Richard and oldest son Edmond were slaughtered and their heads spiked at Mickelgate."

But then after that, didn't the city of York side with Warwick in his rebellion against Edward IV? Warwick's brother was Archbishop of York.

[Tiredemma]

This is what I don't understand (and maybe someone with more 'know' will enlighten me)

If he declared the Princes as illegitimate then this would mean that Elizabeth of York was also illegitimate - so how could marrying her make his seat on the throne stronger? (or even Henry Tudor's for that matter)

[clarabellabunting]

I'm not an expert, but I think the Titulus Regius act that Richard III had passed to make the children of Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville illegitimate was repealed by Henry Tudor shortly after he became king, thus making Elizabeth of York legitimate.

[Tiredemma]

Thanks- ill read up about that. Still confuses me though about Richard iii marrying her if he won the battle? To him she was illegitimate?

[clarabellabunting]

I'm not sure there is any evidence that Richard would really have wanted to marry Elizabeth of York, his neice, is there? In fact, he denied it didn't he?

According to Wiki, before he died he was in negotiations to marry Joanna of Portugal.

[Tiredemma]

I need to read more! (factual stuff though- not romantic novels).

I have an Alison Weir book about Houses of Lancaster and York. Ill delve into that!

[Elsiequadrille]

Yes that's right, they were made legitimate again after Henry Tudor became king.

[alemci]

but didn't Richard 111 instrument the rumour to make them illegitimate. He didn't have to do that. as far as people were concerned at the time they were legitimate.

[clarabellabunting]

I don't think anyone knows for certain where the idea of them being illegitimate originated from.

There's certainly no direct evidence that it came from Richard.

I think it is supposed to have been the baby eating Bishop of Bath and Wells who came forward as the person who had married Edward IV to Eleanor Butler prior to his marriage to Elizabeth Woodville.

But who knows...? Maybe it was Richard's idea and he engineered it all; maybe he was just responding to what he thought was good evidence that he been brought to his attention.

[AgnesBligg]

He just had a bit of a ding dong with Elizabeth didn't he? I don't think he needed a marriage with her - though he was keen for an heir I imagine.

I don't really know how instrumental Richard was with the illegitimacy thingy but the Titulus Regious was a very damning document of brother and his 'appetites'. I wish he had remained protector but I'm sure few people could resist taking the throne if there was a vacancy.

[diddl]

Thinking on though-if Edward lV's children were illegitimate-were they no longer "Princes & Princesses"?

Also, why did Richard not become protector for George's son-who would have been "next in line"?

Or is that too 21stC & it was more of a free for all?

I'm not sure that the "Princes" were any less of a threat to Richard than Henry.

As when Richard made himself/became King, he surely wanted to secure it for his son, and perhaps the TR might have been revoked at some point?

[AgnesBligg]

at 'free for all'

was George's son barred since George was a traitor...so no longer a contender?

Edward's children were no longer royal.

[AgnesBligg]

I do think Richard was the only sensible contender for the throne at that point though.

(and he was very pretty in last night's episode. random.)

[diddl]

Yes, I think that George's son may have been barred.

There are just too many points to think of!

And of course, Henry Vl had the throne taken from him in effect!

So should there have been a "protector" until his son was old enough??

[Tiredemma]

"and he was very pretty in last night's episode. random"


Not random at all. Ive just found myself re-watching the bit where he puts on his battle armour. I came over all funny and lightheaded.