The White Queen

[ShadeofViolet]

Anyone else ridiculously excited?

I know Philippa Gregory's books tend to be a bit Barbara Cartland in places, and I hope the BBC havent increased it, but I still cannot wait to watch it.

Another cracking episode. I know there are a lot of nay-sayers on this thread, but think this series is fab - have been on the edge of my seat, and can't wait till the next episode

I'm a bit lost as to why young Henry Tudor is heir to the throne if Margaret of Anjou had a son who would automatically be heir? (I know he died in this episode, but before that, why did Margaret Beaufort think her son was to be a future king?). Sorry if I have missed something and am being thick!!

ILikeToClean At this stage, Henry Tudor isn't the official heir to the throne. Margaret Beaufort believed God told her that Henry would rule one day.

I think his claim to the throne was fairly tenuous even when he got it after Richard's death.

Oh ok so it's just her believing it rather than him having an actual claim - thank you for clarifying!! This prog is bonkers but quite enjoying it! If only they didn't all have the same names!!

He had a tenuous claim as he was a descendent - through Margaret herself - of John Of Gaunt, as were Henrys IV - VI, but complicated by illegitimacy.

This prog is bonkers I agree .

I suddenly found Richard rather sexeee to my surprise.

Margaret of Anjou is like a pantomime baddy. I keep expecting people to boo and hiss when she's on.

Cringeable acting.

Henry really had no claim to the throne. His mother was a Beaufort, descendents of John of Gaunt and his mistress Katherine Swynford. Legitimised on their marriage but but barred from the sucession, and his father was half brother to king Henry VI through his French mother Catherine of Valois.
Loads of people had much more claim than Henry, he just got lucky!

You'd need to be a bit of a horse specialist to notice this, but...

the series is filmed in Belgium...

The battle this week was supposedly in England, but Margaret Beaufort's wagon at the battlefield was pulled by Belgian Ardennes draft horses :D

I was really impressed with Elizabeth's clear nail varnish
last night.

You can get quite a good shine with buffing if you have the patience (or ladies to do it for you while someone else plays the lute to keep you entertained)

It's probably just witchcraft.

MummyMastodon I noticed that too - those big roan heavies are unmistakeable, aren't they?!

Parts of it are filmed in Bruges, apparently.

Is LaQueen still around on this thread?

I want her to know I've just bought a Rosemary Hawley Jarman book from a second hand bookshop in Hawes!
It's not the treason one - it's something about Owain Tudor & Katherine de Valois.

Right, just caught up after recording it last night. Ilike - in this epiosode they said Henry Tudor was the second in line, so after Bad Queen's son prince Edward (too many edwards and Henrys), as his bonkers mother keeps saying he's King Henry's DN, then if Prince Edward died then he'd be next in line, which as bad Prince Edward died this week, then now down the Lancastrian line, it's Henry Tudor next in line - that's assuming it's not bobbins that he's crazy King's DN.

And you can get a really good shine on nails without polish, old style buffing.

Henry Tudor's father is the half-brother of the crazy king.

They are linked by a mother, not a father.

The crazy king's king-ness came from his father, not his mother.

So the Tudors are related to the king, but not via the line that has the king-ness in it.

Henry Tudor's mother is a quite-good relation of a long-ago king, so he claims some king-ness from that line.

But really you just need to have enough people (and their armies) stand up for you and believe you - it doesn't have to actually MAKE SENSE.

Anne s husband is a bundle of laughs. he doesn't seem to very chivalrous or loving.

I think Margaret's husband Stafford talked alot of sense about not seeing god in margot of anjoo

Henry is no way second in line. If the claim comes through his mother she is from an illegitimate line and there is a legitimate with a stronger claim. John of Gaunt was married to Constance of Castile before he married Katherine Swynford and they had a daughter.

The problem was that Edward III had too many children! Henry VI is descended from John of Gaunt (third son) by his first marriage. Henry Tudor is from the third marriage, which was not a marriage at the time! The York claim comes from the second son of Edward III, but through the female line, and the fourth son through the male line. Stafford and Buckingham are also descended from Edward III from his youngest son, so if Margaret and Stafford had had a son that could have thrown up another claimant!

I think Henry could have been considered second in line to the Lancastrian claim, as any other Lancastrian claimants would have been descended from John of Gaunts daughters rather than his sons.

Oh and the Yorks were also descended from John of Gaunt through the Beauforts, as Cecily Neville was a daughter of Joan Beaufort!

does Henry VII strengthen his claim by marrying Elizabeth of York - the current king (in WQ) daughter before he claims the thrown?

I'm still quite enjoying it, but they are all "bonkers" & uncaring!

Well, from a 21st Century POV!

I feel the series is missing a certain something I can't quite put my finger on? Not as good as the tudors :( I feel like it barrels along, and all the action happens offstage? We don't get to ever see the battles or enjoy the intrigue, by the time someone's mentioned a plot or a fight, someone's getting a note to say it's all over and so-and-so' back on the throne...have a bit of sex, witness a bit of margaret's handwringing over her son, then it's on to the next offstage plot or battle....

Henry was disbarred from the throne because although the Beauforts (his mother's family) were legitimised, they were specifically disbarred from the throne by Henry IV. Henry's father was also likely illegitimate since if Edmund Tudor was the son of Owen Tudor and Katherine of Valois, there was a law against married a dowager queen without permission from the King (permission which Owen did not request and he and Katherine supposedly married secretly, something which also sets the legality of the marriage in doubt). Katherine had around the same time wished to marry Edmund Beaufort, Duke of Somerset, and very possibly had a liaison with him, and it is possible that Edmund "Tudor" is actually Beaufort's son, therefore not actually a Tudor at all. If so this should have necessitated a dispensation from the Pope in order to marry Margaret Beaufort, who might have actually been his first cousin.

The main problem with the drama (besides trashing the real history of the WotR, and besides some very bad acting, poor scripting, squeaky-clean sets and anachronisms all over the place) - is that it's from the point of view of the three women - none of whom were present during most of the politicking, battles, events, dramas etc of the times. So we have the ridiculous scene of Eliz tiptoing around the Tower in her nightie to see what happens to Henry VI, or Marg Beau visiting the battlefield. The drama has missed out entirely the exile in Burgundy, the horrors of Tewkesbury (Somerset splitting Clifford's head in two with an axe), the terrible battle at Barnet (Warwick actually trying to escape on a horse, and soldiers killing him against Edw's orders; Oxford and Exeter's lines attacking each other because of the fog; John Neville wearing York colours under his armour...) What a waste of real history, just to see Margaret Beaufort wring her hands over her boy for the 30th time, or Eliz Woodville being desperate to bed her Edw again. Tedious anti-history.