TV show decisions that are just WRONG - I'll start with the West Wing.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

There must be loads of these. I'm sure ER is not in fact a Bible to medical correctness (say it isn't so!).

The one that bugs me is the bit the West Wing where the President breaks out into Latin. It makes me cringe. It's bad, bad Latin (IMHO).

And also - of course - the fact Toby never gets a chance to clear his name. I love Richard Schiff for explaining he played it assuming Toby was covering for someone, which is great explanation of a frustrating storyline. But I never believed Bartlett (who seems to me so good at accepting people's different points of view) would have judged him so quickly.

Is there anything that bugs you massively? Either for being factually wrong or just not fitting your sense of the characters.

Ah, but Friends is just wrong is so many ways, I can handle that inconsistency! WW on the other hand tried to be realistic in so many ways, this just let them down, IMO.

Ha! I love the idea of sex with Riley being a punishment in itself. He has such a huge rod up his arse. I am also more invested in bad Spike.

With the WW, CJ being made Chief of Staff didn't bother me as much as Leo being made Santos's running mate - come on, the man had recovered from a heart attack, Santos barely knew him, and we'd always been given the impression previously that although Leo was a great behind-the-scenes political player, he could never have run for office, both because of his history of addiction and because he hated that sort of job.

I didn't get it at all.

There's an episode where a ghost or something makes Buffy and Riley just keep having sex all episode while everyone else has an adventure.

There is. I've just watched it.

I'm gutted he didn't write that ep with any of the other characters.

The thing about the rape scene in Buffy is that it was Spike's moral event horizon - the thing that prompts him to go off and get a soul. Not, say, the fact that he's murdered hundreds of people. It supports the idea that rape is a special kind of violence. Not that rape isn't horrific, but I'm kind of uncomfortable about the way rape is being elevated in some way here that I can't quite articulate.

What I got from the not-sex scene in 'Chosen' was that we're being told that the way Spike proves his redemption is by not wanting to have sex with Buffy - which is exactly what happens with Oz and Willow when he "proves himself" by not sleeping with her when she throws herself at him. Which is all bound up in a worldview that male sexuality is evil, women don't really have sexuality, and sex is something women hand out as a reward to men who are "worthy". And this is pretty consistent through the show: Riley doesn't get to sleep with Buffy until he shows what a nice guy he is by knocking out the evil Parker who slept with Buffy without being worthy. Arg ...

Joss Whedon unfortunately has a one hell of a madonna/whore complex which is totally wrapped up in his unshakeable conviction that he is a feminist.

Doctrine Yeah, I always thought that he'd intended to get the chip removed and was rather shocked to get a soul instead. But I think you can read it either way.

How about the shower scene in Dallas? What was that all about?

I agree, the running mate thing was silly. But it still felt vaguely possible as all sorts of unsuitable people (Palin?) get pushed into that role. It seemed like they just wanted him on board to get Santos elected and they could then get someone else to run 4 years later.
I think the show had just run out of main characters at that point (bad forward planning). If Leo didn't do it, it had to be either Nancy McNally or, um, Charlie?

Oh, yes, that's true fair.

I think you're right.

And it's nasty that the focus is all on him - I'm absolutely certain JW didn't intend it to come across as if someone nearly getting raped is actually a Good Thing because it results in Spike getting a soul and becoming the ensouled vampire who can Save The World by his sacrifice (this is beginning to sound like Revelations), but ... well, it is shite plotting.

I've got to say, I really just dislike Oz as a character. Smug twit. Being 'laconic' isn't the epitome of cool, it just makes you look as if you can't be arsed to communicate.

Sorry, I do actually like this show ... I just like picking holes more ...

ginger - oh, yeah, that's true, Palin.

I would have been thrilled if it'd been Charlie! Despite his ridiculous late-season beard.

What about Willow and Tara then? (re worthiness)

Loving the massive Buffy analysis / derailing.

i stopped watching when the sister came in. I did love the writing for Willow though. Strong smart lesbian character. Very good.

Willow and Tara?

Pros:

• Innit nice having a lesbian relationship.
• And it is quite romantic
• And it seems quite mutually healthy for the first couple of seasons
• And they seem to value each other as people (for the first couple of seasons)
• And there is plenty of oblique mention of enthusiastic happy lesbian sex
• Willow is an awesome character
• The other 'witches' in the circle where Willow and Tara meet are a spot-on parody of twitty university 'choice' feminists ('let's have a bake sale! You know I make an empowering lemon bake'). This is funny.

Cons:

• Sorry, but Tara is a terrible actress and a fucking annoying character
• Apart from Once More With Feeling (!), lesbianism appears to be all about holding hands, unless you pay attention to the oblique mentions
• The whole 'magic is a metaphor for lesbianism is a metaphor for drugs'. No, Joss, no.
• The other 'witches' in the circle where Willow and Tara meet are a spot-on parody of twitty university 'choice' feminists ('let's have a bake sale! You know I make an empowering lemon bake'). This is funny, but also quite easy to read as taking the piss out of lesbianism in general.

Erm ... I'm sure I'll think of more. I never made up my mind TBH.

Good points FairPhyllis.

I'm not sure the lack of explicit willow/Tara action is totally joss's fault - I imagine some was network squeamishness, unfortunately.

Personally I rather liked Oz myself. There was that scene in Earshot when Buffy can hear everyone's thoughts and he was exactly the same and intense in his head as well. I always thought that was a funny scene. I was sad when he left. And although I kind of got onboard with the Willow Tara coupling, I agree that Amber Benson was not the best actress!

I meant that it's an example of sex (and they definitely have sex) not being about whether a man "deserves" it, and if they have sex then there must be a "woman actually wanting sex" aspect to it.

Doctrine - I agree, I think it is mentioned on the commentary on some of the DVD's. The network would only allow so much. It got a bit more explicit when it moved from the WB to UPN.

It's a bit hit-and-miss though, is what I'm saying, trills. I can never decide whether it's positive or negative because there's so much on either side.

I take the point that the network was to blame as well, though.

I suppose there's a Jane Austen-style excuse for Joss writing lesbians, TBF.

I think Willow and Tara were handled pretty well, actually, if you can deal with the coyness of the whole magic-as-lesbianism thing in season 4 (because holding hands and floating rose petals is totally what college age lesbians do on a Friday night ).

The thing I didn't like was that the relationship with Oz got retconned out (I did quite like him) - and someone did also point out to me once that Whedon seems to see lesbianism as an inherently empowering thing to choose (see point above about male sexuality being Evil), rather than just being, y'know, a genuine sexual preference. The lesbian scene in Firefly is a bit odd too, as Inara talks about it in terms of it being an escape from male sexuality. I know that there have been feminists who view lesbianism as a political choice though.

There is also the aspect of Tara getting killed = punishment for being gay? I don't personally see this as I think she was pretty well developed as a character and other major characters got killed in Buffy, but a lot of people were unhappy about it at the time. And it was a bit shitty to promote Amber Benson to the main opening credits in that episode only.

It would have been totally fascinating to see what JW would have done with Xander if he had been the one with the coming out storyline. If you watch season 3 again you can see he was setting up for either Willow or Xander to have that storyline in the next season.

I do like Buffy, really I do ... JW is good at creating interesting, fully realised women characters, which is depressingly rare.

I love that parody Wicca "empowering lemon bake" scene too.

The "being worthy" element of JW's philosophy on sex does not seem to be present in Tara and Willow's relationship, yes, which is good.

Ahh, you're making me want to be nicer about it all.

You are right, these are really quibbles, not WRONG as I put in my title.

We should go back to proper outrage.

Yeah I don't think Tara was punishment - right from "Welcome to the Hellmouth" when Luke was vamped, killing the main characters has been part of the Buffy deal. Apparently Joss wanted to put Luke in the opening credits to make it even more surprising, but didn't have the budget for two lots of credits.

Back to the topic - Torchwood lousy plot decision - why did captain "immortal" Jack take Ianto with him to certain death in Children of Earth? This to me was extreme stupidity and unnecessary, it's not like he had a special talentnlike Tosh that might have finished off the monster. It's unlike the more controversial death at the end which at least was meaningful.

Yep, I don't think Tara was punishment either. After all he let them get back together - I think it was just sad. And it did let him do a fantastic storyline with Willow, which I loved.

Although - it reminds me (happily) of another Major Wrong: Giles riding a piebald horse across 'English' countryside and wearing a flowing long coat (which is about to get covered in crap when the horse lifts its tail). It just looks so, so wrong.

I'm sorry, I can't deal with Torchwood as I just find Barrowman fundamentally wrong.

Oh God Torchwood! You are so right! It really did jump the shark when they killed nearly everyone off and moved it to the states. I didn't like the last series one bit, and I loved it before that. Such a shame!

I didn't mind Tosh and Owen dying as they did so in course of doing their jobs well, but Ianto gave me the rage.